Controlled shots more... sorry guys

[Julius Jackson]

There is no threshold beyond of which control shots "switch" to be easier.

It acts as a scale. The more the better. But that doesn't mean 74 - bad, 75 - good.

Think of your stroke points as timing windows - the larger the number the larger the window, smaller number - smaller window. You can execute perfect control shots with ANY amount of stroke point.

Add to that a variable of sidestepping ladder in form of color. Every-time you reach a different color in stat (Yellow, Orange, Red) there is a ladder jump in in that scale.

Like so:

I disagree with the concept of a variable timing window. To me the timing window seems the same whether my groundies are 55 or 90, though I do agree that you can hit great shots with any stroke stat.

The way I see it, each stroke has a modifier based on: Your position, your stroke stat, your power stat, your timing and the quality of your opponent's last shot (which is also determined by position, stroke/power, timing and quailty of the previous shot).

So if your opponent has a good stroke/power combo (say 81 groundies, 81 power) and you have a mediocre combo (say 66, 66) you can still hit ridiculous angles and flat shots that hit both lines, but only when your opponent hits a really bad shot (maybe a late timed reach swing). However, if you both time the ball perfectly and have good position on each shot, then your opponent's shots are gonna be precise while your angles will sit up and your 'deep' shots will land closer to the service line than the baseline. This is true for both power and control shots.

agreed.

the only skill to definitely affect the timing window is instant rocket. dropshot artist could be argued for as well, but even with it the window isnt really widened since it still shows "too late" "too soon" its just that those shots drop in the court instead of being an error. so that tends to support the theory that skills only add to stats while the timing windows remain the same.

[Q-Spin]

Hmm...

VMoe and djarvik - Im not convinced yet

At the beginning of the PS3 WT connection problem, I created a Level-0 woman, just to quickly check if the woman WT works. I got a match and even with every stat 30 I could hit with good/perfect timing. Not every shot, but that I also cant do with 90 90 Drew welch. It feels like my normal ratio. Sure the effectiveness of these shots is a different story.

I've made the same experience and that's why I rather look for "colors" in my setups than numbers. I'm sure there is some minor scaling in every "color tier", but the step from yellow to orange or orange to red is more important (even if it is just one point) than say 10 points in one "color tier".

So you mean increasing BH stat from 65 to 66 has more effect then increasing it from 55 to 65? You are talking about timing window or shot effectiveness? In any case, that seems a bit extreme for me.

The way I see it, each stroke has a modifier based on: Your position, your stroke stat, your power stat, your timing and the quality of your opponent's last shot (which is also determined by position, stroke/power, timing and quailty of the previous shot).

Thats the way I see it too. Maybe we also have to add the reflex stat to that equation.

So if your opponent has a good stroke/power combo (say 81 groundies, 81 power) and you have a mediocre combo (say 66, 66) you can still hit ridiculous angles and flat shots that hit both lines, but only when your opponent hits a really bad shot (maybe a late timed reach swing). However, if you both time the ball perfectly and have good position on each shot, then your opponent's shots are gonna be precise while your angles will sit up and your 'deep' shots will land closer to the service line than the baseline. This is true for both power and control shots.

Well explained! Thats also one reason why its so hard to play against the IR/CPS-combo these days. If you dont have very good strokes you have to hope for a mistimed shot of your opponent or bring him in an uncomfartable reach swing position, which is not easy if his first shot is already perfect, reducing the effectiveness of your shot that should bring him off balance...

the only skill to definitely affect the timing window is instant rocket...

Right, it decreases the timing window of the one playing against instant rocket.

[supinesmokey13]

There is no threshold beyond of which control shots "switch" to be easier.

It acts as a scale. The more the better. But that doesn't mean 74 - bad, 75 - good.

Think of your stroke points as timing windows - the larger the number the larger the window, smaller number - smaller window. You can execute perfect control shots with ANY amount of stroke point.

Add to that a variable of sidestepping ladder in form of color. Every-time you reach a different color in stat (Yellow, Orange, Red) there is a ladder jump in in that scale.

Like so:

I disagree with the concept of a variable timing window. To me the timing window seems the same whether my groundies are 55 or 90, though I do agree that you can hit great shots with any stroke stat.

The way I see it, each stroke has a modifier based on: Your position, your stroke stat, your power stat, your timing and the quality of your opponent's last shot (which is also determined by position, stroke/power, timing and quailty of the previous shot).

So if your opponent has a good stroke/power combo (say 81 groundies, 81 power) and you have a mediocre combo (say 66, 66) you can still hit ridiculous angles and flat shots that hit both lines, but only when your opponent hits a really bad shot (maybe a late timed reach swing). However, if you both time the ball perfectly and have good position on each shot, then your opponent's shots are gonna be precise while your angles will sit up and your 'deep' shots will land closer to the service line than the baseline. This is true for both power and control shots.

agreed.

the only skill to definitely affect the timing window is instant rocket. dropshot artist could be argued for as well, but even with it the window isnt really widened since it still shows "too late" "too soon" its just that those shots drop in the court instead of being an error. so that tends to support the theory that skills only add to stats while the timing windows remain the same.

I agreed with the timing window based on the colour of your stat theory e.g. i was playing a 100 power guy on WT and i had 52 power with liseth aguilar and a 83 fh.

now he hit a fh down the line with power to my forehand and with my 83 fh and low power I hit a clean winner off his shot. yes you can hit good shot regardless of stats but the stat determines how much easier it is to do this and look at it this way regardless of power it is easy to hit a winner with a red level groundstroke especially when you add the inside-out swing to it for more power. see even if your opponent regardless of power hits the ball in your slot you can just tap control flat and send the ball right back at him. thats why fed has a winning record against all the big hitters on tour

[djarvik]

Are you telling me that timing shots is just as easy with 50 as with 90? Providing same quality of incoming shot? No way! Experiment a bit more......I am sorry, but this is nonsense.

My graph is rough explanation on timing windows and their sizes. It was also exaggerated to drive a point across. The changes are not that drastic, but drastic enough so when two similar level players play - they feel them.

Of course there are tons of variables! I never said this is the sole determining factor of effectiveness of the shot.

So where am I wrong?

And as far as "good", "too late" or "too early" notifications, well, they are just that. The notification triggers simply don't adjust properly to all variables. Hence you can have a "too late" shot that is better then "good" etc....

Try playing with Welsh, max his strokes to 90, and you will see how huge the timing windows are. How too late or too early shots go in perfectly.

Some variables shrink opponents timing window by virtue of incoming shot and positioning of the opponent. Timing window is not static, rather dynamic....but it has to feed from a starting point, a point of "all things considered", a point of reference if you will.....that is what my graph represents and that is what I said.

So we all right here. Except Julius. Ban timing! right?

[RainingAmoeba79]

I have to say, I agree with V moe in the stats color thing. Forexample, I can feel the difference in 80 and 81 pow, but not in 78 and 79 pow.

[Painted Crystal]

Last night I had the bad idea to invite Bkristian to play a supertiebreak..
Now this is the result: each exchange did not last more than three shots, he played incredible angles to incredible power
His player setup had "normal", inferior to mine (at least that's what the display meant that even if I was successful in private games there are bugs in the indications of initial values​​). Now I'm not good but I played with some top, of course I always lost but at least winning a few games I played.
Bkristian I think is a monster but I think there is really something that I don't know of TS4. He told me that he never used controlled shots so I think that what I have not yet understood and it is important not only to be "perfect" but also the when moving the left stick to choose the angle, maybe later you move left stick more the shot will'be angled, mah??
Bkristian made ​​me a player very sad, i like and i hate him

[emate007]

In TS3 days, he would routinely beat my favorite male player with his tiny female player as a warmup for his 'real' matches.
Always went to tiebreaks, but I think I won 1 or 2 sets out of the 10 we played. Great player.

[Painted Crystal]

In TS3 days, he would routinely beat my favorite male player with his tiny female player as a warmup for his 'real' matches.
Always went to tiebreaks, but I think I won 1 or 2 sets out of the 10 we played. Great player.

1 or 2 sets against him for me is a dream, 1 or 2 points too...
Is too fun see his tin male hits so strong

[polakis]

I played two games with bkristian just now, but he quit both in the beginning! I suppose he had internet problems. In the first i was losing 2-1 games but we were close and in the second we were 1-1 games...

But i have to say. His style vs me was totally unrealistic. He had 100 power and 91 serve. Thats why he hits bombs in every shot. He is a good player but he doesnt need overpowered unrealistic plays in his game...

Not fan at all...

Oh and you cant quit while 3-3 games...Not clean and fun at all...