Is Nadal unbalancing the tour?

[inseedious]

Personally, I'm playing a lot of matches vs Nadal users and it seems that Nadal is very overpowered.
He has:
-insane defensive skills (speed, counter, stamina);
-insane top spin;
-excellent trick shots (drop, lob, ecc.);
-excellent wings;
-excellent offensive abilities (due to the top spin unbalancing and remember that he has 90 fh power...);
-very good net play (try to play at net with him... considering speed and his good height);
-very good serve (considering also that he can efficiently slice on right handed backhands...).
I'm not saying this because I lost some matches vs Nadal users in exhibition or official matches (I have lost vs Alexjasmins and Clog if I remember well), but because, even winning vs Nadal users, it seems very strongly that they are playing much better than they actually can do. Sometimes I feel like they are playing good just because they use Nadal. When I play vs him, he doesn't do anything special, he just hits high top spins and runs side to side from behind the baseline, waiting for a UE or for a winner opportunity and draining your stamina.
It's impossible to make good dropshots because of his speed and his high top spins. If I make him coming to net with short slices he will efficiently cover the net and do great volleys. If I play offensively and often go to the net, he will reach most of my volleys and my volleying is very difficult because of his top spin and his very easy lobbing. I think there's no way to beat a Nadal user, unless you have the double of his skill.
I win 6-4 vs some players who I usually beat 6-0 when they're not using Nadal, I loose more or less close matches vs players I can beat if they are not using Nadal. And what about players actually able to beat me without using Nadal? They can easily beat me 6-0, while I can have very close matches when they're not using Nadal.
I think that Nadal is totally unbalancing the game and making him less interesting. I'm not a newbie on this game and I was maybe the first player who used top spin as a weapon (I played with Gasquet in summer 2012), when the game was different and there were no problems about overpowered reaching abilities and speeds.
I'm not making a crusade against Nadal and/or Nadal's users. I'm just afraid that in a few weeks most of players will choose Nadal and the remaining ones will keep tier 1 character because they just can't beat Nadal without a very good player. Honestly, I was using Wawrinka in the last matches, but I have to change my pro to Federer because Wawrinka isn't just good enough to counter Nadal users.
Someone, seeing my good defensive play and my frustration, said "just switch to Nadal", but is this the real solution?
Sorry for the long post.

[Indiantonike]

I'm not saying this because I lost some matches vs Nadal users in exhibition or official matches (I have lost vs Alexjasmins and Clog if I remember well), but because, even winning vs Nadal users, it seems very strongly that they are playing much better than they actually can do. Sometimes I feel like they are playing good just because they use Nadal. When I play vs him, he doesn't do anything special, he just hits high top spins and runs side to side from behind the baseline, waiting for a UE or for a winner opportunity and draining your stamina.

I win 6-4 vs some players who I usually beat 6-0 when they're not using Nadal, I loose more or less close matches vs players I can beat if they are not using Nadal. And what about players actually able to beat me without using Nadal? They can easily beat me 6-0, while I can have very close matches when they're not using Nadal.

I think these 2 quotes can easily sum up the problems with Nadal.

When loosing against a Nadal's user, I don't feel I loose against the user, but against Nadal. That's very frustrating. When you have to be focused every time in order to do a perfect shot to have a chance to win, Nadal only have to run and use top spin - very depth top spin.
I'm not saying that Nadal's user are not good, but at this time, they don't deserve winning with Nadal.

But there is an other topic about that opened some days ago. Hope ITST staff will do something as soon as possible, or as you said tournament will just be Nadal v Nadal, and Australian Open will be Nadal.

[inseedious]

Thanks for the supporting, however C4ill's thread is about removing Nadal because of his absence from the tour since july 2012 (even if i agree with him lol), while mine is about balancing him as soon as possible

[Marco_Theo_81]

Cloq is a great player, no doubt! I lost with Fed 2:6 in a practice match against his Nadal. Ok I am not a measure.

But Inseedious is a great player too, and the result from the Qatar tournament shows extremly, how impossible it is, to do something remarquable against a good player who plays with Nadal.

Best example is Alex Jasmins, he told me the score against a certain Otlincho.... His Nadal against Otli's Djoker, the score you ask? 6:0!!! Hope it was ok, to mention the score here, otherwise I am sorry Otlincho.

And also the incredible Florian was victimized from his Nadal more than once with less or more very clear results.
This was Alex told me. Ok, Alex plays over five years TE, an old veteran.

I don't know, how we can moderate Nadal, cause a Nadal in Top Form is in reality very hard to defeat.
But maybe to reduce his enorm Top Spin is a step in a good way.

BTW, I continue to play with Fed, and keep the pleasure in TE.

nice sunday
Ruggerio

[Martan]

Its all about tactic, you cant play baseline tennis with Nadal, you have to rush the net and attack a lot, try to end point as soon as possible. And if you compare Nadal to Ferrer, they are very similiar, Nadal just have a better serve but Ferrer has better BH. I dont think he is overrated, you just cant play same tenis as vs fed, djoko, murray and more... I would say its much more easier to beat nadal with Llodra than with Djokovic

[Indiantonike]

Its all about tactic, you cant play baseline tennis with Nadal, you have to rush the net and attack a lot, try to end point as soon as possible. And if you compare Nadal to Ferrer, they are very similiar, Nadal just have a better serve but Ferrer has better BH. I dont think he is overrated, you just cant play same tenis as vs fed, djoko, murray and more... I would say its much more easier to beat nadal with Llodra than with Djokovic

Sorry but your argument is totally false.

What we don't understand is that you CAN'T play an other way since Nadal shots are too long to do something

[Martan]

I dont want "to be on Nadal side", I do not like people playing for Fed or Nadal cause I think it is coward to play for them but my point is that Nadal is beatable and it is easier than you think. The point is you have to really change your gameplay with these player, you cant expect to beat him from baseline as he will return everything. For example short slides are pretty good for defenders, slide -> net -> volley, perfect tactic how to beat Nadal and others

[inseedious]

I dont want "to be on Nadal side", I do not like people playing for Fed or Nadal cause I think it is coward to play for them but my point is that Nadal is beatable and it is easier than you think. The point is you have to really change your gameplay with these player, you cant expect to beat him from baseline as he will return everything. For example short slides are pretty good for defenders, slide -> net -> volley, perfect tactic how to beat Nadal and others

As you said, i usually use volleys (some games sv all the time), but even this tactic is not so efficient against Nadal to me... His top spin is a pain in the ass when volleying, it can turn a very easy volley in a UE. And don't forget that most of Nadal users often use drop shots when I'm at net (very unfair tactic to me) and that Nadal's lobs are just too good, thanks to his lob skill, his wings' consistency, his spin and his defender's bonuses.

[Martan]

about drop shots when you are at net thats very unfair and it should be punished and banned in rules... Also when you do drop shot and opponent respond is also drop shot, thats also very unrealistic and unfair (but happens a lot).

Anyway about Nadal you are right about his lobs and consistency stats should be a bit dropped but even with thease stats he is beatable. When I lose first I try to find mistake in myself then maybe I try to complain about opponent. It is simple, just be better and next time you will beat Nadal

[inseedious]

I don't think I don't try to improve after a defeat, instead of complain about my opponent (I never do that unless my opponent is clearly unfair). But after the last defeat I think I just have had enough. I admit that being a hard puncher is a disadvantage vs a strong defender like Nadal or Murray (in fact I was better vs Nadal when I was using gasquet), but I'm trying all possible strategies and it really seems that Nadal's users can easily beat me unless I have the double of their skill.
I think that this situation isn't bad just for Nadal's "victims", but also for Nadal's users, who are unable to show their abilities as anyone can say "he's winning just because he's using Nadal". In fact, never said that Nadal's users are not good, but I'm saying that when they use Nadal they are better then they really are.

[Florian]

Funny how people think it is easy to rush at the net and end the point as simple as they say it. I ll repeat it once more : Nadal s spin prevents you to reach the net without it seeming like suicide. There must be an option as djokovic fed or Murray to beat Nadal first by dominating the baseline then finishing some points at the net, but another unbalanced thing is that when baseliners must hit full accels to take a bit of time off Nadal, they get tired much sooner than Rafa who can easily defend only with b1 + down ; so if you're lucky to bash the hell out of him with 145+ accels during the first couple of games you have no chance to see that tactic last for a set or even worse a best of 3 or best of 5 match...totally ridiculous !

And by the way before he started to use Nadal, Alex has never been able to take a single set vs me, and now all the sudden he starts to bagel everyone...c'mon he wasn't even a top player when he was on managames tournaments, what a joke...

[inseedious]

Funny how people think it is easy to rush at the net and end the point as simple as they say it. I ll repeat it once more : Nadal s spin prevents you to reach the net without it seeming like suicide. There must be an option as djokovic fed or Murray to beat Nadal first by dominating the baseline then finishing some points at the net, but another unbalanced thing is that when baseliners must hit full accels to take a bit of time off Nadal, they get tired much sooner than Rafa who can easily defend only with b1 + down ; so if you're lucky to bash the hell out of him with 145+ accels during the first couple of games you have no chance to see that tactic last for a set or even worse a best of 3 or best of 5 match...totally ridiculous !

And by the way before he started to use Nadal, Alex has never been able to take a single set vs me, and now all the sudden he starts to bagel everyone...c'mon he wasn't even a top player when he was on managames tournaments, what a joke...

I agree with your vision of net play. Not only Nadal's spin makes net rushing quite impossible, but, if you can reach the net withou being easily passed, I think that volleying a very spinned shot is way harder than volleying a normal spinned shot, don't you think so?

[C4iLL]

I could have said a lot of jokes about volleying and Llodra but I won't do it because my conflict with the staff about that is now finished So no troll !

With Llodra, I indeed beat Kyuuji at Bercy quarter final, 7-6, 7-6 who used Nadal.
My tactic was pretty simple : coming to the net as soon as I felt there was a breach. And when I did that, I often won important points who gave me the match (on the tie-break for instance).

The problem is that with a character with a less good jump, and volley skills, you may be enable to do that as Florian and Inseedious said. Because of his amazing short cross for instance, his ability to catch a lot of volleys, his spin etc.
And in my eyes, as theirs, coming to the net is the ONLY winner tactic against Nadal.

What is sure is one thing : I talked a lot with Elias recently and the staff tries a lot of things to deal with that case as soon as possible. I'm pretty confident they will find a good solution. The only problem is that VMoe, who is the main guy to try things with the mod is not a real Nadal player : he plays too close from baseline and is then not representative of what most successfull Nadal do.

[inseedious]

However I forgot to say a thing: it's true, real Nadal can be defeated only by Nole (or the best Soderling, do you remember?) when he's on top form, but we can say the same thing about Federer on grass or hard indoor. The real Nadal can reach even more unreachable balls than he does in the game, but of course Nadal isn't totally invulnerable to accelerations. Almost all players who plays vs Nadal score less winners than UE, but i think that, during the match, all of them were able to hit winners when correctly building up the point.
In the match I (Wawrinka) lost 6-1 6-0 vs Clog (Nadal), we played a lot of points with 40-50 shots, it was a "non UE" racing, which he won of course. A player who beats me 6-1 6-0 is usually able to close every point with an easy winner on the lines just one-two shots after the serve, he doesn't need to play an average of 25 shots every point to win. Even short slicing on his bh wasn't enough to force him to an error, when he had no more stamina.

[VMoe86]

I have the following suggestion: How about banning playing a single step behind the standard return position? I think this is what many guys do as Nadal (and many guys not using Nadal ): Play far behind, run left and right, catch balls, hit top spin. When I stand close to the baseline and play a top spin shot, it lands shorter than a bit further behind the standard return position.

@C4iLL: I'm not the main guy doing things. If I were, I'd start from scratch with four characters and a clear vision regarding gameplay: Djokovic, Federer, Nadal, Murray, balance them out. Then I'd add a couple of more characters: Del Potro, Tsonga, Isner, Fish, Llodra, Davydenko, balance them with the first four and among each other. Then you can add characters which are similar to these characters -- this does not take much time. I don't think that special characters are left in this case.

As is it is, we have 36 characters and quite a few areas which are not right (Stamina and Speed, Precision on wings, FH to BH Power relation) -- as a bonus the gameplay of TE changes always a bit, which does not make things easier.