ITST Mod 1.18 - What do you need to get started!

[manutoo]

About more spin = less length,
it's already the case with B1+down , but when standing on the baseline, the length loss is minimal (around 65-75cm depending the style & topspin skill).
It gets quite more important if you step on the toes of the line judges, where the loss will be around 2.5-3m (there, there's also a 1m loss for the normal B1 strike, so the total length loss can be up to 4m) .
If the loss of length was important when standing on the baseline, then you'd get a shot that would be :
- faster
- more accurate
- less risky
- with more spin (for low spin skill players)
than the short strike, and same than above against the short acceleration, except it'd be slower instead of faster.
Thus creating one of the best shots of the game and completely unbalancing it.

Thus said I agree in real life Nadal & heavy spinners hit shorter than in TE, but it'd require some drastic changes in the gameplay to simulate this accurately.

[Florian]

I don't get how a change of lengh for b1+down is impossible without being a faster, less risky and with more spin shot. You're telling me you don't have the possibility to make the spin just as it is in reality, meaning shorter ? And as i wrote earlier, to me the short accel doesn't exist in real tennis...
So basically you're saying there is a flaw in the game concerning spin and somehow i can't change it because it's going to be a big change ? I don't really get it this time...

[Elias]

Well, Manu probably knows what he's talking about, such change probably has some implications tied to the way physics are implemented in the TE core, it may be a much heavyer work than modifying some variables, depending the way it's been conceived, though maybe separated spin stats for each wing may be more feasible ?

In the meantime, we can probably try to deal with, we have different tools available.

One of these tools is also the playstyle (defender) wich has such a noticeable influence over top spin shots speed, and depth. You may have noticed how Ferrer (defender) top spins are more efficient defense/depth wise, with 68 spin, than Verdasco (baseliner) ones, with a 74 spin stat. Just an example, but Verdasco spins, if they can still be a decent defense weapon, overall seems more attackable. Tough Ferrer also has higher consistencies, wich also has an influence on depth.

What i'm basically suggesting is that we're not forced to conceive a char with the TE defender style, because the real player is mainly a defender in reality. I'm more considering any TE playstyle or stat as tools to reach an objective. A good speed along with good stamina, and wing consistencies, is i think more than enough to bring a very good defense potential. Djokovic is a good example, see how some people can defend well with this character ? Though he's a power baseliner, with high wing consistencies, speed, and stam.

That may be a track to explore, building Nadal as a baseliner or puncher, for instance (we already thought about it in the past), that would allow to keep some decent aggression potential, along with good spin, and still pretty good defense abilities imo, thanks to the speed,stamina, and consistency, but maybe getting rid of the overhelming deep defensive top spins induced by the high spin+consistency+defender style bonus, i guess his top spins would probably still be very effective without the defender bonus actually. Nadal would still be a better defender than Djokovic, thanks to the heavy spin, but probably less overhelming and more attackable, wich may justify then to keep a decent winner ability/power.

Murray is another example of a char wich could be built with a another TE style. Sure Murray uses pretty often this loosy mooballing playstyle, but he's also capable to show off and play some matches 'on fire' sometimes with a pretty strong basline game and sharp netplay, puncher style. He's actually a good char in our roster, interesting one the way he plays, but Djokovic has still more success than him among the community. Personally i like our Murray, but sometimes i really miss the puncher/baseliner shoulder height stroke bonus, wich helps noticeably getting some more winners. Shots the real Murray is definitely capable of. So that may be another idea, to conceive him as a puncher, to bring him a bit more interest, because we can consider that his spin stat along with high consistency, speed & stamina, will anyway preserve enough defense potential.

Just some ideas & food for thought, especially about Nadal.

[Florian]

I totally back you up for this Elias, especially since it might seem very complicated at the moment to change the TE core concerning speed.

Nadal would probably be more realistic as a power baseliner with a very high spin stat because he would still have many accels (even more than being a defender). Same applies for players like Monfils and Murray, they are known to defend extremely well because they cover a lot of court surface, but the bonus spin is imo too much, and it doesn't give much chance for both of them to be able to flatten some big shots (especially with the shoulder height bonus).

Others players such as Ferrer or even Simon are real defenders (Simon should be back as a counter with low stats imo, or at least defender with maximum counter stat, but that's another problem).

[VMoe86]

Nadal is always regarded as a defender, but actually he is some kind of hybrid between Power Baseliner and Defender. Power Baseliner with exceptional defensive abilities is more accurate for his style and better for balance. I also think that Djokovic is somewhere between a Puncher and Power Baseliner: He comes in a lot against Nadal or Murray and wins a good amount of points at the net. He could be a Puncher as well. Murray is definitely the most defensive out of the top 4, but also has Puncher traits. In GST on Wii both Djokovic and Murray were "Allrounders", but with weaker abilities at the net than Federer.

I think Counter is very difficult to balance, due to stamina. You have to give some absurdly low value to stamina to have some stamina management for a counter. However, I think a Simon as Defender with 100% Counter is a possibility. After all, in 1.08 Nadal had 100% Counter and was not considered great.

[djarvik]

Besides physics, I think there is a need for a more fundamental change in the way top spin is being controlled now. I have a lot of ideas in that department, here is one that should not require too much work (I think):

- Reverse the top spin control. Make it that the longer you charge, the flatter the shot becomes. The less you charge - the more spiny and short the shot will be. Tapping the shot at the right moment (aka Counter) will produce the Max amount of spin and will produce the shortest shot.

This way we will have the option to flatten out when we have time, and when we don't have time, we will produce a "flick" top spin. Very useful going cross court when on the run - not so useful going down the line or mid-court deep - as it wont be deep. For a deep shot on the run, we will have to use a Regular shot by tapping it and producing a counter, providing the ball has enough power to absorb and use as a counter.

Manu and guys, what do you think?

[Elias]

I think Counter is very difficult to balance, due to stamina. You have to give some absurdly low value to stamina to have some stamina management for a counter. However, I think a Simon as Defender with 100% Counter is a possibility. After all, in 1.08 Nadal had 100% Counter and was not considered great.

Yep, the stamina was the biggest issue we had to face with the counter style. Simon could outlast some Ferrer's and that was by the times when the stamina gaps were much larger than now (Ferrer had like a 10% advantage over Simon), and that was countering with accels most of the time.

Though :

- Gameplay : with Tiredness on, the Counter acceleration is now slightly more tiring

From build 94. So, we may give it a shot later on to check if we can find an acceptable setup. Though i think it's not our priority at this time, as he'll be easyer to review as a defender regarding our short agendas.

[inseedious]

Besides physics, I think there is a need for a more fundamental change in the way top spin is being controlled now. I have a lot of ideas in that department, here is one that should not require too much work (I think):

- Reverse the top spin control. Make it that the longer you charge, the flatter the shot becomes. The less you charge - the more spiny and short the shot will be. Tapping the shot at the right moment (aka Counter) will produce the Max amount of spin and will produce the shortest shot.

This way we will have the option to flatten out when we have time, and when we don't have time, we will produce a "flick" top spin. Very useful going cross court when on the run - not so useful going down the line or mid-court deep - as it wont be deep. For a deep shot on the run, we will have to use a Regular shot by tapping it and producing a counter, providing the ball has enough power to absorb and use as a counter.

Manu and guys, what do you think?

This is a good idea, but i'm afraid that pressing the button at the last moment won't let you aim the shot.

The best idea to me is still "the more you press the top spin button, the more the shot will be spinny and short" (this can also be extended to all the shots for players with high spin stat, who use their spin as a weapon). In fact, when real Nadal charges a lot his wing to make an acceleration, he intentionally goes for a short acceleration to obtain very wide trajectories and very heavy balls. For players like Murray, using both defensive top spins and flat acceleration, a rule like "the more you press a flat shot button, the more the shot will be deep and flat" can be applied.

Another idea to avoid special rules to be applied to a few players is to create a new play style, the "varied baseliner", who can use well defensive top spins and offensive flat shots and has a slightly lower shoulder acceleration than baseliners and punchers.

A last option is to still keep the "the more you press the top spin button, the more the shot will be spinny and short" rule and change the spin stat mechanics, setting a range (for example 40-60%) instead a precise value, obviously with some restrictions (for example the min and the max value difference must be not less than 5% and not more than 20%). In this way, a flat shot well charged can have a spin near 40 and a spin shot well charged can have a spin near 60.

[TWM-Fox]

You should try to save the scoreboard selection for next patch as the scoreboard position is now saved
Other than that nothing much to add, need to explore the new patch but anyhow thx for your work like always !

[Martan]

I would like to know your opinion about these 2 things so thanks for answers


1) Berdych's net pressence and play style
I think his net pressence is really low and should be about 73% at least. He is really awesome at net in davis cup doubles and recently he is rusing the net a lot on ATP tour and his net pressence is really not worse than Tsonga's one.

As I don't know how it affects the game but his style could be changed from regular baseliner to poacher as he is more attacking than most baseliners in ITST

2) Gasquet's serve
Just simple question, is his serve really so weak as it is in ITST? I saw him twice at Doha and his serve is a decent one.

Thanks you all for your reply

[L Sanchez MD]

Berdych comes in more than he used to, but his net presence is not great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7_AvoNZbM

[Elias]

I would like to know your opinion about these 2 things so thanks for answers


1) Berdych's net pressence and play style
I think his net pressence is really low and should be about 73% at least. He is really awesome at net in davis cup doubles and recently he is rusing the net a lot on ATP tour and his net pressence is really not worse than Tsonga's one.

As I don't know how it affects the game but his style could be changed from regular baseliner to poacher as he is more attacking than most baseliners in ITST

2) Gasquet's serve
Just simple question, is his serve really so weak as it is in ITST? I saw him twice at Doha and his serve is a decent one.

Thanks you all for your reply

About the puncher style, this would bring a better net jump compared to the baseliner. But accelerations will cost more stamina compared to the baseliner.

About Gasquet serve it's pretty close to reality yes.
It's not strong but not that low though, he can still serve @ 125mph.

Stats were more ore less builded after some real match stats. Look at Gasquet stats @ us open as an example
here : http://www.usopen.org/en_US/players/ove ... pg628.html

In several matches Gasquet has a max speed of 124/125mph, with an average first around 111mph.

Now look at some offline match stats :




Now it's true that we can see some better max speed here and there, there is some matches stats showing a 128 or 129 mph max speed, but still the same 111/112 average.

So in the mod we have approx 125/116 (i think he can serve to 126mph though). Wich is a slightly lower max speed, compensated by a better average speed.

Not a big gap, really, this is discussable though, we may still decide to give him a bit more power without modifying the consistency, creating a bigger power<>consistency gap then lowering a bit the average and gaining some max speed, right (but this would also lower the first serve % success).

look at this :

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... wYnc#gid=0

It's not valid anymore since last TE build though as the forumula changed (thus 1.11 serve power update) but it should still show the right max serve speeds.

[Elias]

Some feedback about the new volley anims ?

I couldn't read much about it. I think one said it felt easyer to volley, Uga seems to like the swing anim better, but it also seems C4iLL has some problems volleying with the forehand volley, especially with Llodra. It shouldn't change much the reach or sweet spot, though personaly if i found the wrist bend spot on for wide volleys, it doesn't looks very natural for crossed FH volleys imo.

So what's your opinion, should we stay with this motion for 1.12 or switch back to 1.10 one ?

[Florian]

Any chance we can get some real djokovic screams for 1.12 ?

[Elias]

Any chance we can get some real djokovic screams for 1.12 ?

Well they are pretty real imo ?

When i played you, your Djokovic had some wrong screams selected though, was it mean or maybe you have some setup issue ?

You should have these : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpRCvinM6Kg&hd=1