Bring Monster Defense back

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Bring Monster Defense back?

Poll ended at Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:00

Yes!
12
39%
No!
19
61%
 
Total votes : 31

Bring Monster Defense back

Postby Ary1g » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:00

Didn't see this one coming from me? ;)
As always I throw in a poll with my thread. Please read the whole post before you vote.
I mean it, it's not just for fun I added a poll. You never know, maybe I've got some good arguments, maybe I don't. ;)

:idea:

Well, I have thought it out a bit and it seems to me that Smell of Blood really is the same thing as Monster Defense, just less frequently.

I have two questions that need answering.

Firstly, here's the explaining text about Monster Defense.

"You play more precise shots and and make less errors when you are trailing in a game"

Now, I haven't used MD at all since it's banned from ITST and I joined ITST very soon after I bought the game. So I need to know, does it only apply when trailing in a game? Or does it apply when trailing in a match? Because the text says: "in a game", not "in a match".



Secondly, why is MD banned when SoB is still available?

I don't think MD should be banned anymore. Even though it could potentially help a player trailing in a game or match. It does not directly help the player win a game or match!

A game of tennis is eventually decided by game points, break points and match points. SoB helps a player in all deciding points of a tennis match, where MD only helps a player who's trailing in a game or match. What's the logic behind banning MD while keeping SoB then?

I still think Top Spin Invasion can be banned, thereby still banning the already banned coaches. Though, I don't understand why you shouldn't be allowed to use a silver coach with MD? Especially when you can use gold coaches with SoD.

To conclude I just want to say: Bring MD back or ban SoB too!
Last edited by Ary1g on Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby San99 » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:30

What is SoD?
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Postby VillaJ100 » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:17

MD is one of the main reasons nadal is what I like to call a 'god level' character
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Postby Ary1g » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:59

San99 wrote:What is SoD?


It should have said SoB, which is short for Smell of Blood ;) Just a typing error, have fixed it now :)



Nadal have very solid attributes. Reach Swings Expert, Shot Counter, and Monster Defense. MD isn't the only thing that makes Nadal's "God level" in TS4 imo. Yes, when activated, MD combined with Shot Counter and Reach swings probably becomes "god level", but shot counter along with Nadals movement, reach swings and stamina is quite close to "god level" alone imo. Luckily that won't be a problem for ITST, since you can't use Nadal.

There is custom build that has solid stats with MD and Instant Rocket which I think will be a tier 3 player (Djarviks terminology) along with Welsh, Rabari and Neuwirth. However, I haven't tried it, so I don't know if it works well or not. Just seems to be a powerful build.
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Postby polakis » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:21

I agree that monster defence should be back, because serve stick berserkers are exploiting the game...
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Postby DennieFR1908 » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:45

Nah it's good monster defense is bannend it isn't only active when your trailing you will always be able to play balls deeper...

only discrace i can think of is the 98 power setup still isn't banned.. Any bad willing guy can take it and ruin the tour if he is really good.... But i gues the main characters who decide about this on this site doesn't play TS4 so don't really care...what they always say is "I never lost from an 98 98 setup so it's not overpowerd!" you that's a good redenation.... wait untill you play someone who can really play the game. The way I see it they don't really listen to the opinions of ppl of this site anyway so threats like these are useless I never bothered to create a simular threath like this cuz I know how it goes here..
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Postby djarvik » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:21

We always listen to the opinions. We also analyze.

Just because a member has an opinion and management doesn't enforce it doesn't mean "the main characters who decide about this on this site doesn't play TS4 so don't really care". First because you are way off base. I play TS4, to my knowledge Cro and Rob do to.


You don't see eye to eye with us, that's true. But no need to attribute something that is not there. I care for ITST, tours and players more then you think and your little "digs" here and there not only misplaced, but also leave a bit of a sour taste in mouth of people who spend their personal time so you have a place to come and enjoy.

Lets stay friends and try to either discuss the subject, or not.

Monster defense: It has been discussed to death. It works when you behind in the game and match. Basically it only doesn't work when you are ahead. It makes a player better then he should be. When he is losing because he can't keep up - the system helps him. Not fair at all. If you losing- you are losing. In contrast to that the SOB works half the time when you are winning and only on the actual break points when you losing. Also not a skill that I am a fan off, not at all, but nowhere near as effective as MD. Which players has that skill that you think are over powered? Welsh? Sure it is not because of the 90-90 wings. I think that is what makes Welsh "tick", not the SOB.

98/98 - how many titles where won by this setup? How many players in the Top 10 use it? Where are these "Any bad willing guy can take it and ruin the tour if he is really good" and why do you have to include "if he is really good". Isn't it the key? ...being good? Same good 98/98 player that can "ruin" the tour can do so with other setups, including the so called "fair ones". So the key is "Being Good". 98/98 setups are not versatile enough, there are other setups that are simple better suited for winning big titles - and it shows. Believe me, the tour players want to win and if they felt that 98/98 players have some kind of significant advantage - they be all using it and the top 10, 20, 30 would include about 70-80% of 98/98 players. As it stands - it is not the case.

I wanted to say that I rarely lose to these, but you will dismiss it by saying "I am not playing on the same level" so I wont bother. ;)
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Postby Ary1g » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:21

DennieFR1908 wrote:Nah it's good monster defense is bannend it isn't only active when your trailing you will always be able to play balls deeper...


Is this really true? Can more people confirm this? It seems very weird if it's the case. I know you are a high ranked player and knows the game quite a bit, but it just seems so weird. :?

Definitely a flaw in the game if it's the case.. :/

What are your thoughts about SoB, Dennie?

When I played Firderis the other day, I really noticed how he could hit winners from literally everywhere when having a break point or game point. Which is almost cheesy when you've fought your way to 40-0(or a game point at all) on serve against Welsh, just to being crushed back to deuce. Try your best to keep him from getting a break point and hope that he would do a obvious mistake on your game point. ;) That's why I'm thinking that if MD is banned, so should SoB. Simply because it gives the other player an unfair advantage which doesn't reflect the human controlling at all. I know for sure that I play better when trailing in a match regardless of any TS4 skill-set and that I'm a slow starter in a match, most of the time needing a set before I play my best. That's the way it should be imo. You shouldn't get an advantage on certain points or in a certain situation in a match, this should be a trait of the human controlling, not the build you're using. However, I don't think Welsh should be banned anymore. He is a tough build and overpowered with the SoB. Though, I rather think that bringing MD back would balance the top players more than removing Welsh. It's a lot of interesting builds with MD which shouldn't be more OP than Welsh is.
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Postby Ary1g » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:40

djarvik wrote:Lets stay friends and try to either discuss the subject, or not.

Monster defense: It has been discussed to death. It works when you behind in the game and match. Basically it only doesn't work when you are ahead. It makes a player better then he should be. When he is losing because he can't keep up - the system helps him. Not fair at all. If you losing- you are losing. In contrast to that the SOB works half the time when you are winning and only on the actual break points when you losing. Also not a skill that I am a fan off, not at all, but nowhere near as effective as MD. Which players has that skill that you think are over powered? Welsh? Sure it is not because of the 90-90 wings. I think that is what makes Welsh "tick", not the SOB.


Glad to see you coming with a contribution to the thread, Djarvik :)

You write: "In contrast to that the SOB works half the time when you are winning and only on the actual break points when you losing."
It works on every deciding point. Game points on serve, break points on serve, game points when returning, break points when returning, set points, and match points. It's easily noticeable. At least MD does not help you win a tight match. Only help you get back into the action.

I've played some S&V players on WT which get a lot of help from SoB in their baseline game. Very noticeable there too.

Of course, Welsh's wings are great and deserves most of the credit. However, playing Firderis which I feel is around my level in TS4, it's so noticeable when SoB kicks in! He played with 91/81 wings and when SoB kicked in, he could hit winners from anywhere. Forehand an backhand, no matter what.

Conclusion: MD only helps when you're trailing, not when ahead and winning. While SoB gives advantages on every deciding point of a match. Which is a huge difference.

EDIT: Made some edits to the post to make it more clear. :)
And sorry for two posts after another, Djarvik :cry:
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Postby Sh0Case » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:48

Well, Xbox has Avinash Patel and Supermassy as the consistent 98/98 players. These guys have been consistently top 10. 98/98 makes any old player competitive, the only other setup that can do so is 100 power. However, I've never played Avinash when he isn't one of those 2 setups but lately I have played Supermassy in such conditions. He could barely win a point and said to me, "this player is not for me."
If Fifa Tee used 98/98 he would not lose to anybody on xbox IMO but seeing as he's banned we'll never know. Dapery also would never have lost with that setup either as his serving was already incredibly accurate etc.
Last edited by Sh0Case on Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BluudyEEfingaz » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:50

The scary thing is some of the top players are SO good, they can use Silver coaches and beat the majority of the members here. I honestly say congrats to players that have that edge over me. It makes me strive to be better.
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Postby Ali-Iqb93 » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:59

BluudyEEfingaz wrote:The scary thing is some of the top players are SO good, they can use Silver coaches and beat the majority of the members here. I honestly say congrats to players that have that edge over me. It makes me strive to be better.
agreed. The more I lose itst matches the more I m desperate to keep on playing and improving..
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Postby Ary1g » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:24

Ali-Iqb93 wrote:
BluudyEEfingaz wrote:The scary thing is some of the top players are SO good, they can use Silver coaches and beat the majority of the members here. I honestly say congrats to players that have that edge over me. It makes me strive to be better.
agreed. The more I lose itst matches the more I m desperate to keep on playing and improving..


If you want to make it to the top of the rankings, there's no point to keep on playing and improving if you aren't using one of the top 3-4 setups. You will never compete in the top if you don't like playing with one of those setups. They are stronger than the rest, no question. Therefore I think increasing the amount of tier 3 builds could make the tour more interesting and challenging for the high ranked players too. Giving more builds to choose from to become the best.

At least for me, who don't like any of the tier 3 builds at the moment, would have got a potentially tier 3 builds to compete against the best players here with MD available again. In most of my meetings against top players here, I have been using a tier 2 against tier 3 build, which obviously is an impossible task when meeting top players.

I'm not saying that MD makes a tier 3 build right away. However, I know there are some options with MD that are very "Federer"-alike in attributes, which is what I find is the most enjoyable to play with. Big forehand, good serve, and good all-round game. Both Rabari and Neuwirth give a good backhand. Welsh is just no fun at all. And 98/98 is not my taste at all. Leaving no tier 3 players which suits my preferences. Thereby forcing me to use tier 2 builds like Masaki Moriya and Grody. Which lacks that little extra against tier 3 builds.
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Postby BluudyEEfingaz » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:34

Well I'm ranked 10 in the women's game and I play with a balanced setup as Hingis. The problem I found is once you get beaten by a player using a particular setup...you immediately want to change,your own setup...BIG MISTAKE! Stick with YOUR game and develop.your own unique playing style. I only use 53 on power and I do well against the top players.
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Postby Firderis » Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:37

I agree with djarvik here.

SoD isn't a really fair skill, because you definitely have an advantage on big points. Nevertheless, it doesn't lift a player to the level monster defense does.

I recently played someone I usually beat without him winning a game. Then he picked a MD/TI-setup. Suddenly, he played much much "better", I had really to go to the limit to beat him. To me, it is a clear indicator that MD/TI is still overpowered. you feel like playing against another welsh, but with more power and a bigger serve. I don't really know from which skill these angles come from - but they are there and they are heavy. furthermore, "skill" in this game means having timing, so a skill that consistly widens your timing window is problematic.

don't know if it would be a superior setup to others, as I can't judge this because of 1-2 matches, but I guess so.
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