Drops everywhere.

[dsavbeast012]

@dsavbeast012
The game was never balanced. Since day one. This feeling in my opinion is fueled by novelty of the game. But it being new and undiscovered. Once time passes, people discover flaws and exploit them. This has nothing to do with Patch or Balancing updates. All the flaws and more were there since day one and there always will be. We at ITST always try and minimize their impact on our tour. This is what separates us from WT.

Solution? ....exactly what we do now and always did. An on going effort to prevent cheese and limit the flaws. Catch and ban cheaters. Run a fun and enjoyable tour. Every day, day in and day out.

You're right that the game has always been off balance, and if anything it's gotten better through the work of 2k w/ the updates and such. Didn't mean for my statement to be interpreted as if I thought that the game was balanced before.

My point still stands. Of course any tactic is cheap if you use it each and every single point, so from that standpoint the line should be drawn on drop shots compared to other shots. But one person's cheese is another's definition of 'good strategy'. When you're playing someone w/ speed below 60 or so and high power stats, you really can either play baseline w/ them and endure 30 shot rallies or try to do something and drop shot whenever reasonable, of course.

I can see the pain w/ regular drop shots, but don't agree on drop volleys since a) they still can be chased down even by people w/ low speed, unless they are hit absolutely perfectly and b) it's still possible to hit winners on the run w/ a low speed stat, so if you reach the ball and get it back w/ good timing you can still hit it.

I think the issue is that like I said, everyone's gone to being high power low speed now, even I've given in to an extent and added more power in my latest player at the expense of speed. So w/ so many low speed people just playing behind the baseline and doing 20+ shot rallies, of course you will see drop shots used frequently.

[Julius Jackson]

no one uses poisoned slices because it either is banned from use (w/TI) or because the setup is poor. some abilities are timing windows adjustments, some are not. more power, deeper/better placement have very little to do with timing. some abilities just add to stats.

control lobs are used by all the top players here whenever they almost surrender a winner. you can be 15 ft behind the baseline and hit a control lob that forces your opponent behind their baseline lol. its the best defensive shot in ts4.

you get complaints about dropshots because everyone plays baseline tennis and very few have over 60 spd. if you have good spd dropshots do nothing to you. go try hitting dropshots vs nadal...you will get crushed.

by "mandate a limit" i mean enforce a max. you arent technically limiting drops with the cheese rule but you are opening up the can of worms for everyone to complain if someone ever hits more than 2 in a gm.

no one is saying 80 times is cool. what i, and maybe a few others in this thread, are saying is that by regulating drops you pigeonhole the entire tour into becoming baseline clones..because if spd does not matter (and drops are the only time when it does) then why make a character with higher than 40 spd? absolutely no reason.

everyone "claims" to want variety. but the evidence points to a very different conclusion -- that actually people just want to play vs styles that allow them to win so they will complain about S&V and about drops and about...on and on..while ignoring the cheesy tactics which allow them to win that they employ themselves.

[djarvik]

@ dsavbeast012
I agree with you.

one person's cheese is another's definition of 'good strategy'

This is very correct. But since we are a community, our best tool to operate is feedback. Based on what we gathered, overuse of drop shots and drop volleys is what people don't like.

Just like there were complains about certain skills. We took action then and taking action now.

Will there be more problems? Sure! But that is why we are here and why we do what we do. We will evaluate them as they arise and attempt to address them to the best of our abilities. This is why we have members flock to us, and stay with us for years, they know that we are here to listen and make tough decisions. We will protect the integrity of this site and will look out for majorities interest with Tennis in mind. They can be sure we are here to do our best to bring them an enjoyable Simulation to ATP and WTA tours.

[GOA MASTER MDMA]

i agree with you djarvik ,
the whole philosophy from itst is to play fair tennis in a videogame.


you know i play not often at moment TS4 and when i play, than only against itst player ,so i´m not deep enough in this drop shot blabla .
but when someone is playing in every point 3-4 dropshots ,than this is definitifly cheese!!
no doubt about

so why you not simple bann this dropshotproblem.

lets say only 1 dropshot per game is allowed ?
maximal 2 in long points with dueces
and bam , all fixed.

maybe i´m wrong , just my thought

[djarvik]

no one uses poisoned slices because it either is banned from use (w/TI) or because the setup is poor. some abilities are timing windows adjustments, some are not. more power, deeper/better placement have very little to do with timing. some abilities just add to stats.

control lobs are used by all the top players here whenever they almost surrender a winner. you can be 15 ft behind the baseline and hit a control lob that forces your opponent behind their baseline lol. its the best defensive shot in ts4.

you get complaints about dropshots because everyone plays baseline tennis and very few have over 60 spd. if you have good spd dropshots do nothing to you. go try hitting dropshots vs nadal...you will get crushed.

by "mandate a limit" i mean enforce a max. you arent technically limiting drops with the cheese rule but you are opening up the can of worms for everyone to complain if someone ever hits more than 2 in a gm.

no one is saying 80 times is cool. what i, and maybe a few others in this thread, are saying is that by regulating drops you pigeonhole the entire tour into becoming baseline clones..because if spd does not matter (and drops are the only time when it does) then why make a character with higher than 40 spd? absolutely no reason.

everyone "claims" to want variety. but the evidence points to a very different conclusion -- that actually people just want to play vs styles that allow them to win so they will complain about S&V and about drops and about...on and on..while ignoring the cheesy tactics which allow them to win that they employ themselves.

- Which skills give you "more power"? Deeper/Better placement? ...and have very little to do with timing?

- I played most top players. Not even one control lob I have seen. Anyone?

- Everyone plays baseline tennis. So rumors of SV suddenly being overpowered are wrong?

- Once again, read my posts, re-read them....take a break and read them again. I clearly stated, that we keep a track of BOTH, the people who complaint, and the people they complaint about. The can of worms will be closed as soon as someone decides to unleash the worms on all and everything.

- So what are you saying? Let people drop shot 80? Give me an alternative that WILL work, answer daily complains from community.

- last paragraph. Not evidence points to a different conclusion, you do. What do you want? Ban the game? Close the tours? Everything is cheesy right?

We picked what we and majority feel the cheesiest and dressed it.

Can anyone else take over arguing with Julius? I am sure at this point he clearly "gets" the message. Something inside thou doesn't "let go"..... and I have no time at the moment for it.

Peace out!

[Indiantonike]

i agree with you djarvik ,
the whole philosophy from itst is to play fair tennis in a videogame.


you know i play not often at moment TS4 and when i play, than only against itst player ,so i´m not deep enough in this drop shot blabla .
but when someone is playing in every point 3-4 dropshots ,than this is definitifly cheese!!
no doubt about

so why you not simple bann this dropshotproblem.

lets say only 1 dropshot per game is allowed ?
maximal 2 in long points with dueces
and bam , all fixed.

maybe i´m wrong , just my thought

It's really hard to fix a limit because using dropshots really depend of situation. For my part I could use 0 dropshot during 4-5 games and then hit 2 DS winners in a row because my opponent is far behind his baseline or whatever.

[Indiantonike]

control lobs are used by all the top players here whenever they almost surrender a winner. you can be 15 ft behind the baseline and hit a control lob that forces your opponent behind their baseline lol. its the best defensive shot in ts4.

How many top players did you play ? I only know one top player using it, nevertheless I often play top players

[GOA MASTER MDMA]

It's really hard to fix a limit because using dropshots really depend of situation. For my part I could use 0 dropshot during 4-5 games and then hit 2 DS winners in a row because my opponent is far behind his baseline or whatever.

yeah ,i understand you , and what you explained is well okay ,so you can use dropshot .

its not about to find a fixed limit ,like 1 or 2 are allowed ,its about generelly dropshoting

when someone using it in every single point ,in every important point ,
when he play 3 dropshots in every single point ,equal from which position ,

thats than just a cheap tactic and not tennis , thats cheese

thats tricky supermario tennis and not topspin ITST tennis

BTW: at best a dropshot on a 200kmh topspin serve - thats king cheese level "

[PerfectAce]

Just played a macth where the opponent was dropshooting every single point. I quit in the 5th game os 1st set. It seems that a lot of newbies don´t even read the forum. I´m here to have fun, not to get angry about a kid that wants to win at any cost. Really boring...

Sorry guys, but I had to put it out.

[Julius Jackson]

no one uses poisoned slices because it either is banned from use (w/TI) or because the setup is poor. some abilities are timing windows adjustments, some are not. more power, deeper/better placement have very little to do with timing. some abilities just add to stats.

control lobs are used by all the top players here whenever they almost surrender a winner. you can be 15 ft behind the baseline and hit a control lob that forces your opponent behind their baseline lol. its the best defensive shot in ts4.

you get complaints about dropshots because everyone plays baseline tennis and very few have over 60 spd. if you have good spd dropshots do nothing to you. go try hitting dropshots vs nadal...you will get crushed.

by "mandate a limit" i mean enforce a max. you arent technically limiting drops with the cheese rule but you are opening up the can of worms for everyone to complain if someone ever hits more than 2 in a gm.

no one is saying 80 times is cool. what i, and maybe a few others in this thread, are saying is that by regulating drops you pigeonhole the entire tour into becoming baseline clones..because if spd does not matter (and drops are the only time when it does) then why make a character with higher than 40 spd? absolutely no reason.

everyone "claims" to want variety. but the evidence points to a very different conclusion -- that actually people just want to play vs styles that allow them to win so they will complain about S&V and about drops and about...on and on..while ignoring the cheesy tactics which allow them to win that they employ themselves.

- Which skills give you "more power"? Deeper/Better placement? ...and have very little to do with timing?

- I played most top players. Not even one control lob I have seen. Anyone?

- Everyone plays baseline tennis. So rumors of SV suddenly being overpowered are wrong?

- Once again, read my posts, re-read them....take a break and read them again. I clearly stated, that we keep a track of BOTH, the people who complaint, and the people they complaint about. The can of worms will be closed as soon as someone decides to unleash the worms on all and everything.

- So what are you saying? Let people drop shot 80? Give me an alternative that WILL work, answer daily complains from community.

- last paragraph. Not evidence points to a different conclusion, you do. What do you want? Ban the game? Close the tours? Everything is cheesy right?

We picked what we and majority feel the cheesiest and dressed it.

Can anyone else take over arguing with Julius? I am sure at this point he clearly "gets" the message. Something inside thou doesn't "let go"..... and I have no time at the moment for it.

Peace out!

im not saying ban the gm or hit 80 drops a set. im saying that your analysis of the problem is wrong. of course your complaints against drops are great in number...BECAUSE EVERYONE PLAYS THE BASELINE WITH LOW SPEED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! drops and S&V are the only counters to the baseline gm since serving has been castrated by 2k with the 1st update. so your options are S&V vs IR/CPS which aint gonna work...or play a spd/dropshot gm...or join the masses and use IR/CPS. so basically 2 options. but of course the baseliners dont want drops because then their 50 spd is a weakness...so they complain.

so your data sample is VERY biased. there are very few complaints against the baseline tactics BECAUSE EVERYONE USES THEM

to complain about drops and hit control shots 75% of the time is hyper hypocritical. both are cheesy. most knowledgeable players would agree about this. but my problem is that you and others just seem ok with catering to the masses and banning really the only counter to the baseline style in ITST.

the other tidbits:

- a great many abilities have nothing to do with timing -- anything diesel, inside out, TI, IR, CPS, longer/better, poisoned slices, on and on. in fact, very few (like dropshot artist) are timing based.

- most of the top 50 players ive played use the control lob to get back into a pt. the guy i played most recently, in fact, could retrieve a ball after it had already passed him and then hit a lob but theyll only do it when the match is close. if it gets lopsided then theyll just go for winners or control counters.

[safe_as_milk_]

It's gotta be hard to put a limit on dropshots considering that even though i'm no veteran i've played a few players (admittedly on WT) who are painfully slow yet still camp out way behind the baseline. You don't get many dropshots in real tennis but then again you don't get slow players hanging around that deep consistently... if they did, they'd be asking to be dropped. And if they don't learn their lesson, they're asking to get dropped again. And again, etc.

That said, I've played him twice and Perfect Ace certainly doesn't invite the drop shot like this so it sounds like his opponent is in fact a massive cheese demon, and anything that can be done to discourage that kind of play i'm all in favour of....

[el duuderino]

its simply a matter of having the stats and/or super powers/abilities to pull off the shots. 80+ FH with poisoned slices will allow you short angle slice winners or set up winners almost at will vs any non-elite player. control lobs to the back with an 80+ wing...just as easy as dropshots. TI lets u carve the short angles all day. all of this is RARE IRL (as are dropshots and arguably drop volleys) but yet complaints are only about the drops....

Hmm... I am quite sure you are wrong. Abilities/skills are nothing more then timing windows manipulation.

- Why almost no one uses poison slice setups then?
- Control lobs? Seriously, maybe its me, anyone else here encountered this?
- TI - that is why we made the rules, Top Spin shot doesn't need "help" in TS4.

So explain why complaints are about drop shots? Why vast majority find them they way they are? Why I am received daily PMs complaining about them? I have yet to receive any complaints about Lobs thou...

were in a forest, guys. look at all the cheesy trees!!!!!!!! if you mandate a limit to drops (especially an absurd limit to drop volleys) then how can u not mandate a limit to short angle shots? to control lobs? to control returns altogether? the theme is that control shots ruin the gm...just as much as dropshots. but heres the thing: everyone bases their gm around the overpowered control shots so they become cool...an excellent counter to those -- drops -- is NOT cool, tho feeling the hypocrisy?

Not sure what you mean by "mandate a limit", I think we stated a few times very clearly that there will be no limit.

Not feeling the hypocrisy at all. Just feeling you imposing your opinion.
There are TONS of things wrong with EVERY game. But the line WILL be drawn somewhere by ITST. We made a choice, picked a color, and drew it.

that said, hitting a dropshot FROM BEHIND THE BASELINE is cheesy and should be frowned upon if not altogether banned. but if youre inside the baseline i dont see how you can logically restrict them without restricting other arguably even more cheesy tactics. regulating drop volleys....i don't see how that's even being considered.

I am not surprised you don't see it. I think you simply don't "get" what this thread is all about. Or refuse it.

We are not discussing anything other then the fact that drop shooting 80 times in a set is beyond ridiculous. Yet you put forth arguments that have nothing really do with the discussion. Do you enjoy a set with 80 drop shots in it? I don't. Apparently majority doesn't either.

Does TS4 have severe reality flaws? Yes. No what? Let the tour go into a 80 drop shot a set "mode"?


@dsavbeast012
The game was never balanced. Since day one. This feeling in my opinion is fueled by novelty of the game. But it being new and undiscovered. Once time passes, people discover flaws and exploit them. This has nothing to do with Patch or Balancing updates. All the flaws and more were there since day one and there always will be. We at ITST always try and minimize their impact on our tour. This is what separates us from WT.

Solution? ....exactly what we do now and always did. An on going effort to prevent cheese and limit the flaws. Catch and ban cheaters. Run a fun and enjoyable tour. Every day, day in and day out.

i think i'm coming around on you arvik, you may have just stolen my heart...

just so noone misremembers ME... i do NOT like cheese with my video games, only on my cheeseburgers...

[Coolhand Texas]

Julius what are you even trying to argue?? You give me a freaking headache just trying to decipher what you are saying.

Come on man.

[Julius Jackson]

Julius what are you even trying to argue?? You give me a freaking headache just trying to decipher what you are saying.

Come on man.

its really not very cryptic.

a good number of people are clamoring for drops to be capped or almost banned entirely. the recent anti-cheese referendum already serves to place blame/guilt on anyone who uses them with any frequency. and that post is completely open-ended and up to any interpretation one feels to use with it.

the onslaught against drops could easily evolve into banning coaches, banning skills...which would just be catering to a certain playstyle, i.e. baseliners, while making the gm even more imbalanced and the tour about as homogeneous a field as possible lol.

and ya, arguing is fun

[el duuderino]

Julius what are you even trying to argue?? You give me a freaking headache just trying to decipher what you are saying.

Come on man.

its really not very cryptic.

a good number of people are clamoring for drops to be capped or almost banned entirely. the recent anti-cheese referendum already serves to place blame/guilt on anyone who uses them with any frequency. and that post is completely open-ended and up to any interpretation one feels to use with it.

the onslaught against drops could easily evolve into banning coaches, banning skills...which would just be catering to a certain playstyle, i.e. baseliners, while making the gm even more imbalanced and the tour about as homogeneous a field as possible lol.

and ya, arguing is fun

heh, talk about not seeing the woods for the trees...

NOONE but NOONE has suggested, hinted, thought about, notified their parole officers about wanting to ban drop shots for anyone who hits a single drop shot or even maybe a few more.

what we're discussing here, is absolute drop volleys. meaing, no matter what return you hit to them and no matter what position your standing in, pace, etc, the server REFUSES to hit anything OTHER than a drop shot...

and never misses...

how is that NOT cheese?!?