First Amendment.....naaaaaaaaaahhhhhh....not in Minnesota..?

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Postby djarvik » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:22

But man, this is more material on the subject. I was looking for something drastic (or anything really). I mean, no one can give me a reasonable answer to this. Everyone starts going into discussions and etc..

Stupid example, what will happened if we blow up 10 nukes at the same time - end of the world because of blah blah. Period.

With your subjects discussed here, there is no one sentence outcome. Why? ...it is a pendulum, you swing from side to side, to side. Now you are at one extreme, give it time (not 2 days) and you will start going back, and forth.

Give me a realistic grim scenario? ...cows raise up against us? :lol: ...we becomes so fat that we die earlier, like at 20 y/o? ...are we gonna go extinct?

I am just looking for the end result, dont care about the journey. Give it to me!
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Postby beltic caldy » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:40

lol!!! Don't believe I can really provide you with the 'soundbite' you seem to be after my friend - my apologies :(

re this particular issue, i'm certainly not penduluming (didn't know that could be turned into a verb, did ya?!? lol!!!) - black and white issue - laws like this getting proposed and passed constitutes...i guess, 'the fox running the henhouse'.

state laws should exist to benefit the majority at the detriment to no-one, or a minority - these laws are being proposed and passed by lawmakers in the direct employ of big agriculture - that you don't see that as drastic/worrying/scary....well....i see as terrifying - why? because it almost signals a perspective of 'oh well, thats just the way it'.

that's not the way it is over here, and not the way it should be with you - that's not me USA-bashing (before Jay puts TS4 down and grab's his metaphorical defense-weapon!).


Give me a realistic grim scenario? ...cows raise up against us? ...we becomes so fat that we die earlier, like at 20 y/o? ...are we gonna go extinct?


I suppose the American population living (dying?) on factory-food - food that will become worse and worse, healthwise - and by the time American people (the majority, not the tree-huggers like me) wake up to it and start wanting to raise hell, it will be seriously illegal to do so - ergo, a lethal food supply (genuinely life-shortening, as you allude to) wrapped in 'dont ask, dont tell' legislation.

I can't think of anyone who has a deeper understanding of 'denial' as a psychological mechanism than myself, but that, in the past has only had repercussions on myself - this situation is so so so much bigger with such larger consequences.



aaaaaaaaaaarghhhhh.....I am a failure!!! I can't do it!!!! Get me some hollywood/MTV director!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby djarvik » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:45

I was referring to the issues penduluming, not you "on the issues". :lol:

Like laws, interests, opinions, trends...etc...

What seems like the absolute truth and "the right" way now - may not seem that way in the future.

I feel bad for animal cruelty for sure.... but I dont think it can get any worth. I mean whats next? ...they chop them alive to even smaller pieces? :lol:

As far as eating right and all that....well.... we were once convinced of many things that turned out to be ludicrous later. And we had proofs etc.

I am not a vegetarian, but I do not overload on meant. Mostly lamb, with wine and 2-3 times a week :D
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Postby beltic caldy » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:46

oh...just occurred to me too - there are several towns in Texas itself now, where, as a result of terrible diet (sugar overdosing and high-fructose corn-syrup being 2 of the main culprits), for the first time in american history, parents are predicted to outlive their own children - these laws don't directly influence that - BUT the scenario of food-maker/big-agriculture MAKING LAWS can only help to exacerbate that situation - how? By subsidising the cost of corn-fed cattle-meat, thus pricing healthy vegetables and other foods out of the reach of ordinary people - that's not me scaremongering, that's fact and simple economics :(
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Postby beltic caldy » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:02

djarvik wrote:I am NOT going to get involved in this thread.


aye :D :D :D :D :D
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Postby beltic caldy » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:04

djarvik wrote:I was referring to the issues penduluming, not you "on the issues". :lol:

Like laws, interests, opinions, trends...etc...

What seems like the absolute truth and "the right" way now - may not seem that way in the future.

I feel bad for animal cruelty for sure.... but I dont think it can get any worth. I mean whats next? ...they chop them alive to even smaller pieces? :lol:

As far as eating right and all that....well.... we were once convinced of many things that turned out to be ludicrous later. And we had proofs etc.

I am not a vegetarian, but I do not overload on meant. Mostly lamb, with wine and 2-3 times a week :D





sorry man, misunderstood re the pendulum stuff.

the CAFO practices in place now (both the incredibly inhuman treatment of the animals and the overtreatment with antibiotics) have resulted in brand NEW antibiotic-resistant forms of MRSA ST398 - this stuff kills humans dead man - and if you contract it, there is no effective treatment.

Multi-drug resistant staph in 1 of 4 supermarket meat samples


i hear you re changes in view happening re what's good for us and what's not - eg, chocolate and indeed alcohol - 'food experts' seem to go back and forth on these two quite a bit - what i'm talking about here really isn't up for debate, with regards to 'is it or isn't it bad for you' though, whereas the chocolate/alcohol stuff always has been.....
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Postby djarvik » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:14

beltic caldy wrote:... for the first time in american history, parents are predicted to outlive their own children ... that's fact and simple economics :(


:lol: Couldn't resist. Predicted by whom? ..and based on what?
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Postby beltic caldy » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:24

predicted by US Food/Dietary specialists based on obesity figures/mortality rates and actuarial data - i don't have the actual sources at my fingertips - just grabbing some nosh - back to you soon on it : )
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Postby djarvik » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:31

beltic caldy wrote:sorry man, misunderstood re the pendulum stuff.

the CAFO practices in place now (both the incredibly inhuman treatment of the animals and the overtreatment with antibiotics) have resulted in brand NEW antibiotic-resistant forms of MRSA ST398 - this stuff kills humans dead man - and if you contract it, there is no effective treatment.

Multi-drug resistant staph in 1 of 4 supermarket meat samples


i hear you re changes in view happening re what's good for us and what's not - eg, chocolate and indeed alcohol - 'food experts' seem to go back and forth on these two quite a bit - what i'm talking about here really isn't up for debate, with regards to 'is it or isn't it bad for you' though, whereas the chocolate/alcohol stuff always has been.....


I was thinking on a more global scale, like 100 year pendulum swings, not the chocolate back and forth.

I mean even according to the video you once posted, for years we though fat was the enemy...now proteins....

I am not sying they are wrong.... but there will be a guy, a professor, of a major university, 50 years from now, that will swear that all the protein=bad idea is actually wrong...and that problem is in consuming too much greens. After all, they grow the best in poo :lol:

That is the pendulum I am talking about.

What we are convinced of now - maybe deemed entirely wrong pretty soon. MAYBE.

One other thing is pharmaceuticals. I do agree that it is bad and all, but deep down, the agenda is to make money. simplified, develop and nourish the market place, keep the customers coming back and feeling happy.

So there are really two ways here, bank on eating "green" and live your life as we know you can, nothing new....or bank on "drugs" to make your quality life better. The second has more potential. No doubt. Sure, its scary ohhhhhh chemistry, scary word...all the motion pictures....really spooky. :)

But I am not so sure it is. Some of it yes, but a lot of it is extremely helpful now and will be in the future.

Sure, the "boys" have to keep you sick, to use drugs etc... but at the same time - not too sick. You still need to make it to the store, you still need to be able to travel, eat, work, spend....so other industries are flourishing as well, after all, drugs don't come cheap.

I guess what I am rumbling about is that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to live. I really dont know if you right, all I do know is that you are extremely passionate about the subject...and I draw a line to religious extremist with that....and honestly, I try to stay away from anything "extremist" when it comes to "the way of thinking" and ideology.

Sometimes I succeed :)
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Postby beltic caldy » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 23:04

i hear you man, and apologies if i jumped over the line again....i do feel very strongly about the whole subject :(

i have friends over here who are getting into the more and more common 'gastric banding' surgical procedures.....not because they specifically lack will-power or are weak or whatever...well...thats a factor, but the biggest factor is diet, and specifically the sheer increase of dietetic sugar (and this one is nearly 100% down to high-fructose corn syrup proliferation - majority cause = sugar-drinks such as coke and a whole range of 'fruit' drinks) - put simply we're eat more than we were 20 years ago, but also WAAAAAAAAAY more concentrated sugar - thus people are simply getting fatter - this horrible facilitating surgery is costly and in the long-term not terribly effective - yet more and more people are availing of it.....why? because the 'market' has responded to the obesity levels - its getting cheaper to do, and people tend to do what's easiest.

that's some of it, and then you have things like breast-cancer - in 2008, 1.38 million women (globally) were diagnosed with this terrible disease - in the UK alone, in the same year, 130 women per day were diagnosed - 130 women??? In that same year, 2008 - 12000 of those women died.

You mention the value of pharmaceuticals, and i'm with you, largely - but diet would likely drastically reduce the numbers of people requiring medication in the first place (reduction in ingested animal-protein = dramatic reduction in many 'big cancers' - incontrovertible data for this). i really do believe in modern medication....where it's necessary and the illness to be treated cannot be avoided - illness that CAN be avoided by change in lifestyle/diet tho....well....that's just another name for facilitation in my book.

And likewise with this gastric-band stuff - cheap surgery = ethos of "i'll keep eating myself to death and then have the surgery" rather than "maybe i should really change what i'm doing to myself"....and we're seeing more and more of this 'mechanism' in the western modern world.



sorry if i come across as a zealot man, really am - kinda hard when you feel so strongly about something and seem to see a lot of 'who cares' stuff going on - do myself a harm i reckon, 'cos I can put people off who may have been slightly interested :( :(

i walk a tightrope myself and fall off in this way often.....
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Postby djarvik » Thu, 28 Apr 2011 23:36

No need to apologize at all man. I meant in general more then you personally. I meant I draw the line from this topic to any other extreme ideology topic.

After all, if I didn't want to discuss, I would follow through on my "threat" :lol:

You are way too soft to be extremist. Hell, you haven't even condemned anyone personally here! ... you always polite and never offensive, even if passionate.


If you wish I can discuss it further, but I will confess, I don't know enough ion the subject but I am a good speculator and "devil's advocate" :twisted: :lol:
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Postby tigerofintegrity » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 00:19

Actually, there are very few things in life that are truly 'bad' for you. Sugar, fat and proteins sure as hell aren't bad for you. Neither is chocolate or alcohol. What is bad for you is when moderation goes out the window. In fact, all these are really great for your body in the right amounts! I mean, if you're stupid enough to gorge on sugar or protein products day in day out, well that's more your problem and far less to do with the industry. And if you're willing to risk surgery so you can eat crap all your life, well that's your right to. The industry didn't twist your arm and force you to.

The industry may not be helping by making 'bad' food cheaper but the onus lies on the individual in the end. There are alternatives out there and the whole 'I can't afford healthier stuff' argument is mostly redundant in the western world. Granted there are some who really can't pitch out a single extra penny but most that complain don't have a lot of ground to do so. You can't really complain about not being able to afford healthy food if you go out to get drunk... not doing that and buying better food is twofold more healthy.

As for the industry, I do agree there are some things that could change for the better. Beltic, you touched a bit on healthy food (I presume you mean organic) being more expensive. Contrary to popular belief, organic farming does not have to produce significantly less yield than intensive farming. The main problem with designing an organic farm that can compete on the same level as an intensive farm is that it requires a lot of ecological knowledge. That requires a lot of education of farmers so it's far easier to just continue what we're doing now than spend all that effort and money. If governments supported this more, it would definitely help bring 'healthy food' to a more competitive level.
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Postby beltic caldy » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 00:40

djarvik wrote:No need to apologize at all man. I meant in general more then you personally. I meant I draw the line from this topic to any other extreme ideology topic.

After all, if I didn't want to discuss, I would follow through on my "threat" :lol:

You are way too soft to be extremist. Hell, you haven't even condemned anyone personally here! ... you always polite and never offensive, even if passionate.


If you wish I can discuss it further, but I will confess, I don't know enough ion the subject but I am a good speculator and "devil's advocate" :twisted: :lol:



glad i didn't offend man - you're a good 'un!!!!!!

tiger - would take too long here to talk about my views here, and would be going over covered-ground - pretty much covered in these two threads!!!!!!!


http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/v ... highlight=

http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/v ... ght=casein
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Postby beltic caldy » Fri, 29 Apr 2011 03:04

Actually, there are very few things in life that are truly 'bad' for you. Sugar, fat and proteins sure as hell aren't bad for you. Neither is chocolate or alcohol. What is bad for you is when moderation goes out the window. In fact, all these are really great for your body in the right amounts! I mean, if you're stupid enough to gorge on sugar or protein products day in day out, well that's more your problem and far less to do with the industry. And if you're willing to risk surgery so you can eat crap all your life, well that's your right to. The industry didn't twist your arm and force you to.


hmmm....i agree with the sentiment/idea behind this tiger, but there lots of things that, even in moderation really aren't good for you - unfortunately the majority of them tend to lead to 'chronic' rather than acute illnesses/conditions - by which i mean illnesses/conditions that don't come about as a result of a single 'dose' or whatever, rather several, or several hundred/thousand doses/meals/exposures - animal protein is an example of this - it won't kill you quickly, or even kill you full stop, if you're lucky, but it simply is not good for you in the long term - Casein, the main protein in cow's milk actually ticks all the boxes for the textbook definition of a carcinogen....which i would say is pretty bad for you...but it may depend on your perspective....

The industry may not be helping by making 'bad' food cheaper but the onus lies on the individual in the end. There are alternatives out there and the whole 'I can't afford healthier stuff' argument is mostly redundant in the western world. Granted there are some who really can't pitch out a single extra penny but most that complain don't have a lot of ground to do so. You can't really complain about not being able to afford healthy food if you go out to get drunk... not doing that and buying better food is twofold more healthy.


I largely agree with you here man - except that it's not a fair fight - through the 'meat lobby' having such big power in washinton now, and after the massive deregulation that Bush Jnr put in place, basically 'Big Agriculture' has made it so that 'cheap meat' (the true cost is shocking, in real-dollar terms, environmentally and many other ways) costs so much less than even 'normal' non-organic vegetables that a great many people are compelled, economically to consume it - that the government condones this is really appalling and it does (the US government i'm talking about specifically in this case) - the USDA and the FDA both have high-level staff - directorial level, that are former members/directors of the meat industry itself - basically, the lawmakers putting legislation in place that benefits their industries to the detriment of the public in order to maximise profits and profitability - you say the onus lies on the individual - sure, in fair 'fight', economically speaking - but if a kg of beef, for example costs, hypothetically $5 and a kg of tomatoes costs $10 (completely spurious numbers before anyone jumps on it, but the ratios aren't far off), which is an economically-challenged family going to go for?

I hear your argument about costs of organic farming re competing with non-organic, and, for example CAFO style organisations. Again, these costs are helped, or subsidised by government, and the hidden costs are huge.

Have a look at these tables:


Water Required to produce one pound of California foods
(according to Soil and Water Specialists, University of California Agricultural Extension, working with livestock farm advisors)

1 pound of lettuce 23 gallons
1 pound of tomatoes 23 gallons
1 pound of potatoes 24 gallons
1 pound of wheat 25 gallons
1 pound of carrots 33 gallons
1 pound of apples 49 gallons
1 pound of chicken 815 gallons
1 pound of pork 1630 gallons
1 pound of beef 5,214 gallons

The beef number varies, depending on who you believe/whose research you listen to - some numbers say this:

Water required to produce 1 pound of California beef:
per the Water Education Foundation 2,464 gallons


Water required to produce 1 pound of beef:
per David Pimentel, Ph.D., Professor of Ecology and Agricultural Science, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 12,009 gallons


further:

Putting water use info into perspective
If you shower each day for 7 minutes, using a shower with a flow rate of 2 gallons per minute, you are using 14 gallons of water per day (7 minutes x 2 gallons), or 98 gallons per week. Rounding that up to 100 gallons per week, in 52 weeks you would be using 5,200 gallons of water per year to take a daily shower.

Comparing 5,200 gallons of water used by taking a 7 minute shower every day for a year, to the 5,214 gallons of water it takes to produce a pound of beef (using the estimate noted by water specialists at the University of California, noted above), you realize that in California today, you can save more water by not eating a pound of beef than you will save by not showering for a year.

Take your choice -- 4 hamburgers or a year's worth of showers?

According to the calculations of the celebrated Dr. Pimentel of Cornell, you could go two years without a shower and still not save as much water as you would by not eating one pound of beef.




Finally, and going back to your statement about onus being on the consumer, which it is, and isn't:

(i'm not trying to be offensive with this next bit - forgive me if I do offend - i'm not talking about well-read people who ask awkward questions, more the too-busy-to-do-this group):

Where a great many Americans get their information about foods: Advertising
Amount spent annually by Kelloggs to promote Frosted Flakes: $40 million
Amount spent annually by dairy industry on "milk mustache" ads: $190 million
Amount spent annually by McDonald's advertising its products: $800 million
Amount spent annually by the National Cancer Institute promoting fruits and vegetables: approx $1 million
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Postby tigerofintegrity » Sun, 01 May 2011 11:42

First of all, I'd like to ask you this. What are the reasons you would list for you being a vegan? Is it merely to do with being more environmentally friendly or do issues like animal cruelty (to livestock etc.) and supposed increased health come into play?

beltic caldy wrote:Water Required to produce one pound of California foods
(according to Soil and Water Specialists, University of California Agricultural Extension, working with livestock farm advisors)

1 pound of lettuce 23 gallons
1 pound of tomatoes 23 gallons
1 pound of potatoes 24 gallons
1 pound of wheat 25 gallons
1 pound of carrots 33 gallons
1 pound of apples 49 gallons
1 pound of chicken 815 gallons
1 pound of pork 1630 gallons
1 pound of beef 5,214 gallons

The beef number varies, depending on who you believe/whose research you listen to - some numbers say this:

Water required to produce 1 pound of California beef:
per the Water Education Foundation 2,464 gallons


Water required to produce 1 pound of beef:
per David Pimentel, Ph.D., Professor of Ecology and Agricultural Science, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 12,009 gallons


Of course it requires more energy to produce meat than it does vegetables. For every step up you go in a food chain, approximately 90% of the energy is lost.

The problem is, these are not valid comparisons so these figures are a little misleading. A pound of lettuce may weigh the same as a pound of beef but they do not provide the same nutritional value. Taking only energy into account:

Lettuce gives 25kJ of energy per 10g.
Beef (for burgers) gives 185KJ per 10g.

So a pound of beef provides about 740% more energy than a pound of lettuce but requires 22,600% more water to produce. That makes lettuce about 30 times more water efficient. This doesn't take into account other nutrients since lettuce is largely water whilst beef provides a variety of other stuff. Therefore you would need to factor in the water cost of producing all the other foods that would be able to substitute the rest of the nutrients beef provides (which might be quite a lot of other foods). Even after factoring these in though, it will always be more energy efficient to produce food from the bottom of the food chain but the difference is not as drastic as that table makes it out to be.


beltic caldy wrote:Putting water use info into perspective
If you shower each day for 7 minutes, using a shower with a flow rate of 2 gallons per minute, you are using 14 gallons of water per day (7 minutes x 2 gallons), or 98 gallons per week. Rounding that up to 100 gallons per week, in 52 weeks you would be using 5,200 gallons of water per year to take a daily shower.

Comparing 5,200 gallons of water used by taking a 7 minute shower every day for a year, to the 5,214 gallons of water it takes to produce a pound of beef (using the estimate noted by water specialists at the University of California, noted above), you realize that in California today, you can save more water by not eating a pound of beef than you will save by not showering for a year.


My analysis above makes the impact of this statement a lot less powerful. Presuming after all the calculations, lettuce is about 10 times more water efficient than beef, then that means a year's worth of showering is equal to 10 pounds of lettuce then. Not all that much vegetable matter either. Plus the comparison, whilst slightly significant, is also slightly irrelevant. Showering and eating are two separate things that both need to be done and are mutually exclusive. If not showering and eating beef are comparable, why pick against eating beef? Why not suggest not showering as a means of saving water since everyone does that but not everyone eats beef? I mean, traditional Mongols have been living for centuries without needing to shower (bar twice in their lifetimes).

I mean, many of the things you say are true and the science behind it is sound but many scientists know how to manipulate data to show it to you in a much more dramatic fashion that it really needs to be. Global warming debates are a clear culprit of this, often citing worst case scenarios rather than median projections. You have to be a little bit wary of the data presented to you sometimes.

Also, as a side note, I would question the accuracy of some of these results. If the value for the amount of water needed to produce one pound of beef ranges from 2,464 to 5,214 to 12,009 that is a massive margin for error. I mean we're not talking about 5-10% but 100%+ margin for error. That's not really encouraging and if the consistency in the research is lacking by this much, it would definitely render these results largely insignificant until some consistent replication can be quoted.
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