topspin invasion

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

@ tigerofintegrity

I like the idea of having a minimum in each stat. 2 problems is that it affects "balanced" stats, and takes away the differences between "balanced" stats.

(1) Affecting balanced stats
This would affect S&V the most. Would exceptions be made if people want to put 20 pts into s&v? S&V is not overpowered though. What about if they want 15s&v 5ofb, or 12s&v 1ofb 7dfb? Or how about baseline players who want stats like 12ofb 8dfb, or 1s&v 9ofb 10dfb or 10ofb 10dfb? You can make a lot of SIM like characters from all those stats, and you can also make monsters from those stats as well. Would exceptions be made for people who make SIM like characters without using the minimum stat requirements? This is something the minimum stat requirement affects. While it forces people to have points into things they normally wouldn't, there are a lot of gray areas that people could complain about. It accidentally eliminates balanced stats and targets SIM-like setups.

(2) Takes away the differences between balanced stats.
There are 9 coaches that require atleast 2 8/8 stats. With the removal of Pei Jing Quah, that makes it 8. Essentially all players that get the same 8/8 coaches will be exactly the same. Since 4pts must go into s&v all 8ofb/dfb characters will be the same if they have the same coach. Since 3 must go into ofb/dfb, you can only have either 8s&v 8ofb 4dfb or 9s&v 8ofb 3dfb, etc. Little shifts here and there, but they would still be very similar. Whereas before they could do 1/8/11 or 0/11/8 and be different even though they have the same coach. They wouldn't have any points left to differentiate themselves from others with the same coach because of the minimum stat requirement.


@Silver coach idea
I talked about this a while back in my post to anil. Here it is http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=189841&highlight=#189841. In short, silver coaches don't address the issue. Even if you were to take it a step further and say lets use bronze coaches, you'd still need rules.
On that same page, at the top, I made a comment on emate's post, which is about silver coaches as well, http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=189588&highlight=#189588.


@Baghdad
The majority, most likely, won't want rules for the normal tour. Way too much opposition to get Pei Jing Quah banned. Trying to impose any more restrictions would practically be impossible.

I say put your energy into the sim tour only. I personally don't see anything changing for the normal tour. This will prevent a lot of disagreements, arguments, and complaints from happening.


@Gahan
Actually if you make changes to your character he would be allowed going by my rules. Making your fh/bh even would do the job.

fh 69
bh 69
srv 79
vol 39
pw 84
sta 83
spe 70
rf 47

You could also make some stat tweaks that fit within my rules as well since the coach requires a minimum of 6ofb and 6dfb. 2s&v 10ofb 8dfb yielding:

fh 70
bh 60
srv 81
vol 46
pw 78
sta 79
spe 73
rf 53

or any other combination of stats you could come up with.

Yeah my rules wouldn't allow the first 2, or the 3rd, but you can create a lite version of the third that would fit. The coach Dilan Cordero also gives focus service and serve stick berserker. He has a requirement of 4s&v 4ofb. Except unlike Stephan Babb, who gives 45 points, he gives 35pts. You could use 6s&v 14ofb

fh 66
bh 61
srv 95
vol 60
pw 83
sta 62
spe 47
fr 61

This character is definitley beatable and I personally don't see anything wrong with him.

All I'm asking for is that your strokes and power fit 3 criterias, while having a cap at 14ofb/dfb. I don't care how big your serve and power are, as long as you don't have huge power and huge strokes. While at the same time eliminating the extreme ofbs/dfbs so the middle men can compete. With the obvious elimination of Pei Jing Quah.


All we need now is for the admins/mods to green light a sim tour so we can put up our ideas forward and start testing them out.

[Sherlock 117]

All we need now is for the admins/mods to green light a sim tour so we can put up our ideas forward and start testing them out.

You can test them out whenever you want, with or without a green light. Make a thread with test conditions, and see if anyone is interested in testing it with you. Make sure to see if anyone can come up with a monster under your conditions, and also if you are able to have a good variety.

Make sure your rules are relatively simple.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

All we need now is for the admins/mods to green light a sim tour so we can put up our ideas forward and start testing them out.

You can test them out whenever you want, with or without a green light. Make a thread with test conditions, and see if anyone is interested in testing it with you. Make sure to see if anyone can come up with a monster under your conditions, and also if you are able to have a good variety.

Make sure your rules are relatively simple.

Really !?!?!? Lol, I didn't know it was that easy, hahaha. Lol now I feel dumb . Thanks for showing me who's boss sherlock. I'll get right to it .

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Btw, would we have to create different threads for the different rules. So things don't get convoluted? (I create mine, baghdad his, tigerofintergrity and so on)

[supinesmokey13]

Actually, I think if we combine my method of minimum of 4S&V, 3OFB and 3DFB with silver coaches only, that could work out quite well. Running it through the coach calculator (props to Till69 for this incredibly useful program!) the maximum possible for FH + BH combined is 150 (anyone care to double-check). The maximum possible for power is 76 and the only one that might be a problem is serve which can get up to 89 and on power builds can often get above 80.

Now people might want to restrict those a little bit more on the SIM tour, like I'm sure Baghdad might feel 76 is a little too high on power and 150 for BH + FH might be a little too much. But, I think this is a really promising starting point and from here we would only need very minor restrictions. Say like if you want power 70 or less only, from here there aren't many combinations that get to over 70 so it wouldn't be very complicated to make/end up with a build that falls into that criteria.

I suggest people who are interested to test this suggestion out thoroughly on the coach calculator and report back whether they think this is a good, workable idea or we need a totally different approach.

it can be done i did it i use the calculator and had 22 different set ups and i narrow it down to 12 stored on my xbox and two usb's although the other ten setup i discarded them so this may me sum time but i can to do it

[supinesmokey13]

Actually, I think if we combine my method of minimum of 4S&V, 3OFB and 3DFB with silver coaches only, that could work out quite well. Running it through the coach calculator (props to Till69 for this incredibly useful program!) the maximum possible for FH + BH combined is 150 (anyone care to double-check). The maximum possible for power is 76 and the only one that might be a problem is serve which can get up to 89 and on power builds can often get above 80.

Now people might want to restrict those a little bit more on the SIM tour, like I'm sure Baghdad might feel 76 is a little too high on power and 150 for BH + FH might be a little too much. But, I think this is a really promising starting point and from here we would only need very minor restrictions. Say like if you want power 70 or less only, from here there aren't many combinations that get to over 70 so it wouldn't be very complicated to make/end up with a build that falls into that criteria.

I suggest people who are interested to test this suggestion out thoroughly on the coach calculator and report back whether they think this is a good, workable idea or we need a totally different approach.

it can be done i did it i use the calculator and had 22 different set ups and i narrow it down to 12 stored on my xbox and two usb's although the other ten setup i discarded them so this may me sum time but i can to do it

for my SV bros and sisters 15 sv, 5 DFB , 10,5,5, 12 SV, 8 DFB ARE BEST TO VOLLEY WITH AND surviive rallies with

[Sherlock 117]

Btw, would we have to create different threads for the different rules. So things don't get convoluted? (I create mine, baghdad his, tigerofintergrity and so on)

I would probably suggest you guys talk it out and figure out a single set of rules to test out. But of course it's entirely up to you.

[supinesmokey13]

Actually, I think if we combine my method of minimum of 4S&V, 3OFB and 3DFB with silver coaches only, that could work out quite well. Running it through the coach calculator (props to Till69 for this incredibly useful program!) the maximum possible for FH + BH combined is 150 (anyone care to double-check). The maximum possible for power is 76 and the only one that might be a problem is serve which can get up to 89 and on power builds can often get above 80.

Now people might want to restrict those a little bit more on the SIM tour, like I'm sure Baghdad might feel 76 is a little too high on power and 150 for BH + FH might be a little too much. But, I think this is a really promising starting point and from here we would only need very minor restrictions. Say like if you want power 70 or less only, from here there aren't many combinations that get to over 70 so it wouldn't be very complicated to make/end up with a build that falls into that criteria.

I suggest people who are interested to test this suggestion out thoroughly on the coach calculator and report back whether they think this is a good, workable idea or we need a totally different approach.

it can be done i did it i use the calculator and had 22 different set ups and i narrow it down to 12 stored on my xbox and two usb's although the other ten setup i discarded them so this may me sum time but i can to do it

for my SV bros and sisters 15 sv, 5 DFB , 10,5,5, 12 SV, 8 DFB ARE BEST TO VOLLEY WITH AND surviive rallies with

these setups are ok and are done in the order of serve volley offense basliner, defense baseline in case you get mixed as to how many level to put in each 1. 4,10,6 2. 3, 6,11 3. 6,6,8 4. 6,7,7 5. 7,5,8 6. 8,2,10, 7. 9,6,5 8. 12,0,8 9. 10/0/10 10. 5,5,10 11. 4,7,9 12. 4,3,13 13. 3,5,12 14. 4,4,12
i'll tell this much when the OFB is any near say 13+ thats where you get 75-85 ish power so maybe we need to look at that and also max level for DFB to make sure it's fair but power wise theses setups are ok their are not too overpowered

[tigerofintegrity]

It's possible to go over 76 power with my format? Remember it only allows silver coaches.

Also, nice work! I don't think you need to post all the possible combinations though. I merely invited people to test the player creation format and see if they can find any flaws or ways to improve it. I would like to leave possible player combinations to future SIM players themselves so they can express their own individuality.

Did you find any overpowered setups or perhaps too high stats/combination of stats in some builds that we might need to tweak?

[tigerofintegrity]

@ tigerofintegrity(1) Affecting balanced stats
This would affect S&V the most. Would exceptions be made if people want to put 20 pts into s&v? S&V is not overpowered though. What about if they want 15s&v 5ofb, or 12s&v 1ofb 7dfb? Or how about baseline players who want stats like 12ofb 8dfb, or 1s&v 9ofb 10dfb or 10ofb 10dfb? You can make a lot of SIM like characters from all those stats, and you can also make monsters from those stats as well. Would exceptions be made for people who make SIM like characters without using the minimum stat requirements? This is something the minimum stat requirement affects. While it forces people to have points into things they normally wouldn't, there are a lot of gray areas that people could complain about. It accidentally eliminates balanced stats and targets SIM-like setups.

(2) Takes away the differences between balanced stats.
There are 9 coaches that require atleast 2 8/8 stats. With the removal of Pei Jing Quah, that makes it 8. Essentially all players that get the same 8/8 coaches will be exactly the same. Since 4pts must go into s&v all 8ofb/dfb characters will be the same if they have the same coach. Since 3 must go into ofb/dfb, you can only have either 8s&v 8ofb 4dfb or 9s&v 8ofb 3dfb, etc. Little shifts here and there, but they would still be very similar. Whereas before they could do 1/8/11 or 0/11/8 and be different even though they have the same coach. They wouldn't have any points left to differentiate themselves from others with the same coach because of the minimum stat requirement.

Regarding your first point, I don't necessarily see this as a big problem. I honestly don't see people putting all or virtually all their points into S&V because it's not really a viable setup in this game. You need to have some sort of baseline game to survive in TS4 and S&V alone won't win you many matches. I think most people would put points into the other ones.

However, I do agree that more points in S&V wouldn't be overpowered. Honestly, I haven't used a pure S&V player so I don't know how people would like one to be. Maybe if some people do actually want to put 17 or 18 into S&V we could accommodate that. Are people going to want to make that kind of a character though?

You second point is an unfortunate problem with the game. I'm not a big fan of this style of leveling up where all your stat growths are combined and fixed together. It limits creativity and customisability. What you have pointed out could be a potential flaw with this system. However, this system of forced levels in certain areas could be the only way to ensure a balance of styles. In your system, I can see most people going for the 8-12OFB and 8-12DFB build and never putting a single point into S&V (a lot of those including with gold coaches, falls into your criteria). So my system may make players a bit more similar to each other but because of the leveling system in place in this game and the nature of it, it may actually lead to more diversity overall.

[jayl0ve]

So are we going to begin offering 9-week courses on how to fully understand these artificial 'rules' or what??? Wow. Too much.

[tigerofintegrity]

So are we going to begin offering 9-week courses on how to fully understand these artificial 'rules' or what??? Wow. Too much.

If you're willing to pay me, I'm willing to teach you.

[supinesmokey13]

It's possible to go over 76 power with my format? Remember it only allows silver coaches.

Also, nice work! I don't think you need to post all the possible combinations though. I merely invited people to test the player creation format and see if they can find any flaws or ways to improve it. I would like to leave possible player combinations to future SIM players themselves so they can express their own individuality.

Did you find any overpowered setups or perhaps too high stats/combination of stats in some builds that we might need to tweak?

yes their are some over powered setups and high stats combos in certain builds with foucus defense slash offensive basline play it was suggested that OFB should be capped at 14 well that is still to high unless we force people to commit to the minimum of 4 SV because if have ten in OFB and ten in DFB and use the coach Tomas Madr you could end with these stats FH, 73,BH,73 SERVE 62, POWER 83 allow the serve is not that highthe power could be an issue and you could unbalance the groundies and have FH 83, and bh 63 combined with the power is a seriously strong or what do you think and the OFB 8, and DFB 12 combo is over powered also like the OFB 12 and DFB is also too strong we should at forcing at minimum SV stat that will defintely help that max 14 OFB, DFB wont work you cant create sum seriously strong setups oh and i dont think silver coaches with work it limits the variety i think im right in saying we we are ok with guys having weapons i.e. 80 fh but not say power 70-80+ to go with it and not to high defense either if so we can come up with builds to meet these requirements using gold coaches and maintain variety and have fair play i want to keep gold coaches and rid TI/MD, other monster stats combos overpowered setups i.e too much power can we not accomplish are aim and keep gold coaches ?

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

@tigerofintegrity

Oh I've run into a lot of people who put 20pts into s&v.

If you make accomodations for s&v because it's not overpowered, what about baseliner stats that are not overpowered but don't make use of the minimum stat requirement? Would they be allowed too? If yes, then that would create gray areas that would need a better explanation and this would further complicate things. If no, then sim like stats and differences between people using the same coach would hampered.

Yeah this way of leveling up isn't bad, it just needs some fine tuning. Giving people the ability to level up what they want individually, like TS3, is a bad idea. You can create sim characters with 12ofb 8dfb or vice versa. How the points are distributed is what, i believe, makes them sim like or not. That's where the stroke restriction rules come in.

[supinesmokey13]

@tigerofintegrity

Oh I've run into a lot of people who put 20pts into s&v.

If you make accomodations for s&v because it's not overpowered, what about baseliner stats that are not overpowered but don't make use of the minimum stat requirement? Would they be allowed too? If yes, then that would create gray areas that would need a better explanation and this would further complicate things. If no, then sim like stats and differences between people using the same coach would hampered.

Yeah this way of leveling up isn't bad, it just needs some fine tuning. Giving people the ability to level up what they want individually, like TS3, is a bad idea. You can create sim characters with 12ofb 8dfb or vice versa. How the points are distributed is what, i believe, makes them sim like or not. That's where the stroke restriction rules come in.

hey what if put the setups i wanna use on the sim tour up would that help cos i have 12 different setups i plan to use so 1. one you guys can decided what levels you want to cap and 2. my setups are ok to be used on the sim tour