the right to bear arms.......

[djarvik]

My home is my castle. You break in - you die.

Very simple concept that in itself prevents crimes.

I would not care what "grade", "type", "level", "prestige" criminal are you. If even hint of not immediately running away from my house squealing "maaaamy" then you getting shot.

Baltic, I respect you a lot.....but I cannot agree with most things you say. And frankly, I don't want to argue I know its a Forum, but it seems like people speaking up with having little to no experience in the matter, on life.

Guns are bad, but in today's world - there is no chance in hell USA will give up that right. All these discussions are pointless as you try and paint a picture of you being "right" and "us" making "excuses"....and that is no argument at all.

I have been robbed (armed) when I was 10 years old, with my mom being there. They have hit her a few times, just to quite down, they have hit me. I have lost my ability to speak for over 6 month over that.

I shot at people and have been shot at in a on going conflict.

The world is simply not ready to give up guns, I am not ready.

It (elimination of guns) has to start somewhere else, we have to "reach" the point where guns are rendered useless. Going backward by eliminating guns from civilians and placing them solely with people at power is a HORRENDOUS idea to me.

[Mike Rotchtickles]

My home is my castle. You break in - you die.

Very simple concept that in itself prevents crimes.

I would not care what "grade", "type", "level", "prestige" criminal are you. If even hint of not immediately running away from my house squealing "maaaamy" then you getting shot.

Baltic, I respect you a lot.....but I cannot agree with most things you say. And frankly, I don't want to argue I know its a Forum, but it seems like people speaking up with having little to no experience in the matter, on life.

Guns are bad, but in today's world - there is no chance in hell USA will give up that right. All these discussions are pointless as you try and paint a picture of you being "right" and "us" making "excuses"....and that is no argument at all.

I have been robbed (armed) when I was 10 years old, with my mom being there. They have hit her a few times, just to quite down, they have hit me. I have lost my ability to speak for over 6 month over that.

I shot at people and have been shot at in a on going conflict.

The world is simply not ready to give up guns, I am not ready.

It (elimination of guns) has to start somewhere else, we have to "reach" the point where guns are rendered useless. Going backward by eliminating guns from civilians and placing them solely with people at power is a HORRENDOUS idea to me.

In my view it wholly depends on one's situation and most definately the country of residence. But I'm agreeing with Djarvik on this one.

His comment of "I am not ready to give up guns" is most definately something I and my family can totally relate to.

A few years ago my parents were ambushed in our home by a bunch of thugs. My dad was pistol whipped and my mom was headed to you know what happening to her. If it wasn't for my eldest brother owning and using his firearm at that time, I most definately, not probably, but most definately would not be around to be writing this post.

The gun in my brothers possession was not our "downfall" or our "hindrance", but our salvation.
One can try and spin this to me any which way one wants, but I'm not changing my view or belief that there are instances and situations were a firearm is most definately needed and the person trying to dispute or take that away is not saving lives but putting them in severe risk.

Djarvik says "my home is my castle. You break in-you die"
Sounds overly dramatic doesn't it? But never a truer word spoken, as far as my attitude and views on that is concerned.

[coke4]

Going backward by eliminating guns from civilians and placing them solely with people at power is a HORRENDOUS idea to me.

Completely disagree, thats how it is in Europe, and it works perfectly, in fact things are working much better over here then in America.
In Ireland our gangs have guns, our police don't, our civilians don't, and tings are fine.

[SlicerITST]

about the house thing i agree with you, because in Spain if someone breaks into your house you have to leave him take whatever he wants, if you kill the guy throwing him a shoe for example ( no guns ) you're going straight to jail, notice that not even the police can hurt anyone, they have to arrest criminals without hurting them, otherwise criminals will report the policeman, nonsense i know

Its a bit different. In Europe if you buy a gun, put a knife under your pillow or something similar you take a risk. You do this because you are planning on killing someone. If a burglar enters your home and you stab or shoot him without warning you finalized this plan. This scenario will take you to jail. Whenever the burglar makes any move to you or your family your defending yourself. Its true that you have to proof that but if the burglar is wearing a sort of weapon this is very solid evidence and you will most likely not go to jail.

My personal opinion is that the system in Europe is crap. When i cross the street by walking through a red light i made a decision while being aware of the risks. I shouldnt complain then when my decision leads to me being hit by a car. Same goes for a burglar breaking into a home. He makes a choice based on the risks. The risk being getting killed. If he doesnt like that he shouldnt break in.

The debate whether or not USA is more violent and if this is because of its gun laws has been raging on the internet for many years. The discussion about this in each others countries/continents is very small in comparision with the size of the online debate. So i think its a bit of a void discussion. Both sides are more then happy to keep their own views on it and it is not going to change any time soon.

[beltic caldy]

Thanks to everyone for time and considered input - a fascinating and enlightening collection of thoughts and opinions : )

We can debate til the stars burn out I suppose - my last word is that I believe the 'gun laws' (2nd amendment stuff) were sculpted at a time (1791, right?) when America was an entirely different place. If the constitution were to be redrafted right now, I don't believe that there would be any place for them.

The situation in England/Ireland is very very far from perfect - our police forces to a large extent just 'clean up afterwards' and are far too susceptible to direction by political rather than legal or even ethical impetus.

All in all, and having lived in America and Ireland, I still prefer the English system - I am not saying Americans are wrong - just that the legislation needs to be updated to reflect the times we live in - capitalistic forces coupled with this law/amendment have led to a situation where it is normal and acceptable for families to feel a necessity to be armed with lethal weapons. A 'normal' domestic burglary in Ireland/England only very very rarely involves guns - that's a fact - the reason for this is debatable, but it seems sensible to hypothesise that a burglar here won't think of bringing a gun 'to work' because it's incredibly unlikely that his/her victim will have a gun or guns. There must surely be a cause/effect link here?

With the level of debate and discussion we've had here, I am optimistic that change is possible and indeed inevitable, to a large extent.

Once again, thank you all - I value your input more than you know : )

[AUSSIE_FABS]

Just because there are worse laws doesn't make it any better, just saying. That's like just going up to someone punching them in face then telling them that at least you didn't kick in balls.

I find the whole guns to defend stuff counter intuitive.

care to explain more on how its counter intuitive?

Ok let's us try and ignore special cases and look at it as a whole. Are more people saved by having weapons readily accessible to the public than killed. Yes the world isn't the safest place but I jsut feel that americans paranoia is their own downfall. Just imagine the amount of deaths that would not occur if the criminals did not have such easy access to guns. Of course there will always be criminals with guns but the main threat to general populace is not the 'higher up criminals' it is the desperate smack head and gang bangers, many of which A LOT would not be able to have weapons if a simple law was in place.

It doesn't bother me too much because I don't live in america and never intend to but seems like to me stubborness>thinking. I don't like different culture thing as a reason especially in the context in modern day u.s.

Also off topic, how the **** do you guys not go utter mad with your media. We had a trial of some pay tv thing so I thought watch us television man I felt like my mind was being bludgeon into stupidity lol, not perfect here either but supposedly higher ups want to follow u.s model eghhh.

Too hard to stay on topic because it a much larger than just the weapons it about the way of thinking in that society. (doing sociology in uni soon soz lol. So warming up the ol' thinking haha.)

Basically you just need to think of big picture and not just self safety(and no there is nothing darwinian about it lol)

[jayl0ve]

How is the media there any better?

What, are you guys watching Shakespeare plays and learning algebra on TV or something?? TV's pretty retarded everywhere

[Moralspain]

How is the media there any better?

What, are you guys watching Shakespeare plays and learning algebra on TV or something?? TV's pretty retarded everywhere

I watch sports,series and films.

[Coolhand Texas]

Just because there are worse laws doesn't make it any better, just saying. That's like just going up to someone punching them in face then telling them that at least you didn't kick in balls.

I find the whole guns to defend stuff counter intuitive.

care to explain more on how its counter intuitive?

Ok let's us try and ignore special cases and look at it as a whole. Are more people saved by having weapons readily accessible to the public than killed. Yes the world isn't the safest place but I jsut feel that americans paranoia is their own downfall. Just imagine the amount of deaths that would not occur if the criminals did not have such easy access to guns. Of course there will always be criminals with guns but the main threat to general populace is not the 'higher up criminals' it is the desperate smack head and gang bangers, many of which A LOT would not be able to have weapons if a simple law was in place.

It doesn't bother me too much because I don't live in america and never intend to but seems like to me stubborness>thinking. I don't like different culture thing as a reason especially in the context in modern day u.s.

Also off topic, how the **** do you guys not go utter mad with your media. We had a trial of some pay tv thing so I thought watch us television man I felt like my mind was being bludgeon into stupidity lol, not perfect here either but supposedly higher ups want to follow u.s model eghhh.

Too hard to stay on topic because it a much larger than just the weapons it about the way of thinking in that society. (doing sociology in uni soon soz lol. So warming up the ol' thinking haha.)

Basically you just need to think of big picture and not just self safety(and no there is nothing darwinian about it lol)

desperate would find guns just as easily. in fact its the desperate ones that would have the guns if laws were passed banning guns for citizens.

[Moralspain]

you know a law like in the USA doesn't help to avoid events like what happened in Arizona last saturday, that's undeniable......it doesn't help guys, i'm not saying that wouldn't happened in Europe, but not as often like it happens there, and one of the key factors is that the access to guns is more complicated here, you'll have more problems to get the guns the bullets and all that stuff.
In Europe we have other problems we need to solve the problem we have with the car accidents, lot of people die every year cause the speed, drunk people driving and more causes, really a shame, in my opinion in the USA you have better driving awareness.

[djarvik]

You keep isolating Guns and say that is the problem. I say that is the solution.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... a-U-S.html

Keep assuming you are "right".

[Moralspain]

well ok, as Coolhand said "There is no point in arguing. You have your opinion, I have mine"

[coke4]

You keep isolating Guns and say that is the problem. I say that is the solution.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... a-U-S.html

Keep assuming you are "right".

Guns kill people, most of these crimes are small crimes with minor injuries.
Look at this http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

And can I just say that while we were arguing about this, a nine year old girl was killed thanks to a gun bought legally, nine years old.

Djarvik, Coolhand, you said you want to protect your house, why not use a non-lethal weapon, such as a stun gun or tazer?

[djarvik]

While we are talking here, a few dozen little girls were kidnapped, another few dozen killed on the road, another few dozen died from legal toys sold in stores...and so on.

your point?

People kill, not guns. Guns are the means.

A gun will stop anyone in his tracks, tazer will not.

A girl was killed not thanks to a gun, but rather thanks to irresponsible adults. Its an accident. Every accident can be prevented. All accidents cannot be.

You throw one example and try to make it seem like: "this IS the problem with the world" I disagree, this is not the norm, this is a freak accident and need to be treated as such.


Was alcohol prohibition successful? ...is drug prohibition successful? .... you think guns will be different?

Wake up. Making something illegal only creates problems, always has.

We are more then functional as a society, some say we are even a strong country. We dont have a "Problem", plenty of issues, but no "Problem".

We can always get better, improve. Guns are nothing new to US, and yet we manage survive so far, even strive, right?

[coke4]

While we are talking here, a few dozen little girls were kidnapped, another few dozen killed on the road, another few dozen died from legal toys sold in stores...and so on.

your point?

People kill, not guns. Guns are the means.

A gun will stop anyone in his tracks, tazer will not.

A girl was killed not thanks to a gun, but rather thanks to irresponsible adults. Its an accident. Every accident can be prevented. All accidents cannot be.

You throw one example and try to make it seem like: "this IS the problem with the world" I disagree, this is not the norm, this is a freak accident and need to be treated as such.


Was alcohol prohibition successful? ...is drug prohibition successful? .... you think guns will be different?

Wake up. Making something illegal only creates problems, always has.

We are more then functional as a society, some say we are even a strong country. We dont have a "Problem", plenty of issues, but no "Problem".

We can always get better, improve. Guns are nothing new to US, and yet we manage survive so far, even strive, right?

One example? things like his are happening all the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4371403.stm
Already this year 2 people have been killed in school shootings, 12 were killed last year. These things are happening all the time. Its not an isolated thing to happen.

A you say the gun provides a means of killing some, would this guy have been able to kill so many people without a gun? no. Would these school massacres be happening, most probably not.
You say that a girl was killed thanks to an irresponsible individual, true, but due to your system, that irresponsible individual can legally and easily get a gun.

As for stun guns, I completely disagree, one bullet might not be enough to kill someone or stop them in their tracks, three seconds with a stun gun and they are effectively paralysed for around 15 minutes. a Quarter of a second is all that is needed to stun the person.

I would say the way we handle guns in Europe is much better than the way you handle guns in America in my opinion.