Stan vs Rafa

[Pepe Bradock]

Kudos to Rafa though - as already said, I can't think of many (any?) other players that would have kept playing in that situation.

Oh my ! Kudos for what ? Staying in court ? did you enjoy the match after he came back from the locker room ? I didn't
Whether he was injured or not, was all this necessary ?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhTm5oCkTvE#t=0

MOANING, CRYING, TOUCHING and let the whole world know that he's injured. What's the consequence ? Wawrinka won but there will always be a "Yeah, but...."

Want to be classy and respect the crowd and the opponent ? stay quiet about it. He was doing ok in the first set...Could have continued like that. He was doing ok even before going to the locker romm. When he came back, he somehow started to feel the pain. I repeat, I don't know how injured he was but I know he made a good act in there.

Do you see the guy in my avatar ? Played last year a lot with back pains and we never found out until he told us between tournaments. That's how you respect the tennis fans and most of all, your opponent.

I don't want debating about did he respect crowd, opponent, TV networks or the Pope continuing to play yesterday instead of withdrawing.

Nonetheless, it can be said that he did not continue just to allow Wawrinka to win his first GS in a regular way instead of thanks to retirement. No, he continued because one the one side he's a big fighter, and on the other side, he knew that he was playing a guy who never had beaten him before, a guy who was only playing his first GS final at 29, and, more than everything, a guy who was known for a long time for having big difficulties to end his games. Then he certainly said to himself he had chance to win though he was hurt since 2-0 at the second set. It was near to work, as Wawrinka lost set #3, playing future tournament game level, and when Waw lost his serve at 4-2 in 4th set, making an horrible game, as he was so close to win. Fortunately, Stan overpassed all these things and finally won. But can we really say yesterday we had a brightening example of so-called Nadal "incredible" sportmanship ? I'm not so sure...

[BrushedBigJJ]

Want to be classy and respect the crowd and the opponent ? stay quiet about it. He was doing ok in the first set...Could have continued like that. He was doing ok even before going to the locker romm. When he came back, he somehow started to feel the pain. I repeat, I don't know how injured he was but I know he made a good act in there.

Not sure what you were watching. Rafa's back certainly seized up on him. When he hurt it after the serve and forehand he started serving at 70 mph from that moment on before he went to the locker room. When he came back from the locker room he still could only serve 70 mph. As time went on he got it back up to 110 in the 4th set. It's a death wish to fake an injury and then try to sell it by serving 70 mph in the men's game.

Fed has had back problems but it wasn't enough for him to not be able to serve his normal speed let alone under 100 on every serve. So comparing the 2 injuries doesn't make sense.

[Lucian86]

Not sure what you were watching. Rafa's back certainly seized up on him. When he hurt it after the serve and forehand he started serving at 70 mph from that moment on before he went to the locker room. When he came back from the locker room he still could only serve 70 mph. As time went on he got it back up to 110 in the 4th set. It's a death wish to fake an injury and then try to sell it by serving 70 mph in the men's game.

Fed has had back problems but it wasn't enough for him to not be able to serve his normal speed let alone under 100 on every serve. So comparing the 2 injuries doesn't make sense.

The game before going to the locker room he was serving above 160 km/h. After it dropped below 160 km/h. Yeah, I believe he overreacted to the issue he had and make it look worse than it was in reality.

I wasn't comparing Fed's injury with the one Nadal had but the attitude. Anyway, we don't know which one was worse. Just because Nadal was moaning about it, it doesn't make it more serious.

[djarvik]

Yeah, but what you suggest goes pretty much against the type of player Nadal is. You saying he had some sort of injury and he "over played" it? ...against a guy that looked good for 1 set? ...a guy that he never lost to?

...damn, he should have done that against Gulbis after nearly being bageled.

Nadal may play the time clock, may have tons of quirks, may play the injury time outs, but I do not believe for a second he will stop "trying" to win the match by starting to serve slow in second set and touching his back....for the next 3 sets....just to make sure in case he losses it looks like he was injured. Hell, he could have done that tons of time before in close matches, or after losing first sets....why start now? ...why change what he is ALL ABOUT now? ...he is THE guy you always think will come back from the dead and win, so he suddenly decided to change who he is at 2014 Australian Open, after 1st set? why?

[BrushedBigJJ]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eLTDSXZyLww

Judge for yourself
7:50 beginning of injury game
11:00 injury

His serve did only slow down by 30 kph from the beginning of the game to the end. Then when he came back to serve from being worked on there was another 30 slow down with no mobility. Whatever that injury was it was better to keep it warm than sit for 3 mins+ for the injury timeout cause he was better before the injury timeout, and better later in the match when it warmed back up.

The game before going to the locker room he was serving above 160 km/h. After it dropped below 160 km/h. Yeah, I believe he overreacted to the issue he had and make it look worse than it was in reality.

And again I ask why would someone going for two of each grand slam bother to try to sell his injury after taking an injury timeout by barely moving and serving first serves at 110 kph at any point in the match?

[pidzi]

It really does not matter if Rafa was injured or he was not. The thing is that tennis players fitness and physique is his problem and he is responsible to be ready for match, particularly for Grand Slams and as we all know Rafa who is overloading his body way too much than any other players, then well of course it has to take its toll thus the fact he got injured in the match is only his own fault while Stan stayed fit means he deserves the win much more than Rafa. And doing some hypothetic conclusions like "if Nadal stay fit it would be much closer match" is totally irrelevant because : 1. as i already mentioned his fitness is his responsibility, 2. Stan was clearly dominating the match before injury happened.

So this is it any other discussions on this topic is imo pointless.

[Lucian86]

Whatever that injury was it was better to keep it warm than sit for 3 mins+ for the injury timeout cause he was better before the injury timeout, and better later in the match when it warmed back up.

You get cold in 5 minutes ? I don't think so

Yeah, but what you suggest goes pretty much against the type of player Nadal is. You saying he had some sort of injury and he "over played" it? ...against a guy that looked good for 1 set? ...a guy that he never lost to?

Against a guy that out-played him until then !
Yes Djarvik, he's Rafael Nadal but he's human after all. If he's not fit, it's difficult for him to win important matches ...We know that already. Remember the period after he lost against Soderling in 2009 at the French Open. He didn't have the recovery he had last year; for some reason he was not in a good physical shape and he lost clearly a lot matches, even against not so great opponents (or at most he got away with narrow wins).
How many times he accused injuries for his losses ? how many times has stopped matches for medical treatments ? He managed to make a lot of casual fans believe that if he's 100%, nobody beats him so if he loses, there must be something wrong with him.
Yes, I trully believe he overreacted with his injury in this game. Stan, the lucky man ! that's what many people believe now

It really does not matter if Rafa was injured or he was not. The thing is that tennis players fitness and physique is his problem and he is responsible to be ready for match, particularly for Grand Slams and as we all know Rafa who is overloading his body way too much than any other players, then well of course it has to take its toll thus the fact he got injured in the match is only his own fault while Stan stayed fit means he deserves the win much more than Rafa. And doing some hypothetic conclusions like "if Nadal stay fit it would be much closer match" is totally irrelevant because : 1. as i already mentioned his fitness is his responsibility, 2. Stan was clearly dominating the match before injury happened.

So this is it any other discussions on this topic is imo pointless.

I agree and casual fans don't understand that. They think he's just unlucky. No, he's got many injuries because of his game style. That's part of the game. That's the sacrifice he has to accept and all his fans should be aware of that. No need to feel sorry for him. You play with fire, you'll get burned sooner or later.

[Moralspain]

Lucian, i'm a Nadal fan, you're not obviously, i live in his town so i know perfectly well about his injuries etc, and i do hate when people just post random stories about his injuries with no idea about what they're talking about....anyway.....yeah Stan-The lucky Man, of course he is, do you think he could beat Nadal both guys healthy?, do you really think so?, no need to answer, if he can beat a healthy Nadal, the number 1( and i say healthy because according to your posts Nadal is always making up injuries, and this time he was also making it up) then he will have a super year and we'll see him playing GS finals and winning 1000 tournaments, can't wait.

If Wawrinka reach another GS final during his career i'll change my avatar to anything you want guys, that's a bet.

[djarvik]

Xavi - I will take that bet! I will find a nice Gulbis pic.


But yeah, I agree with you. Rafa obviously a better player, by far. I do agree however that a win is a win, in case of Stan, he was clearly in command of the match when the injury happened, so the word "lucky" does not really apply here. Sure, Rafa most likely would have won, but there was a small chance that Stan would win - and that is enough for the "lucky" to go out of the window.

...but than again, he DID get lucky that Rafa was injured, faking an injury (absurd statement) or whatever, cause bottom line, Rafa has his number, in a VERY one sided way.

[Moralspain]

AL do you think Wawrinka is a one-slam wonder?, i do think so

And yeah i agree about the "lucky" and "did get lucky" thing, good point

[djarvik]

AL do you think Wawrinka is a one-slam wonder?, i do think so

In this era - YES. Way too many contenders. He may reach another final though, he hit his prime now and depending on what happens with Rafa's injury he may have the draw to get to final again by beating either Murray, Djoker or Fed. Two in a raw in a 5 set match will be tough. Next year he will have a few young guys give him tons of trouble, like Dimitrov.

Wawrinka's problems were:

Consistency on Forehand - solved.
Inability to close out easy matches - solved.
Unable to beat the top 4 - solved.

He has the best serve out of the Fed/Murray/Rafa/Djkoer, has 3rd best BF, has 3rd best FH, has (to me) the best net game (yes, while not as elegant as Fed, much more efficient and smarter). He really has big game and still moves rather well. I expect him to do well in the next two years, but not winning a slam.


On that note, his plan against Rafa was rather good one:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis ... rinka.aspx

Gulbis had a better one though - hit as F*** hard as you can.

[Lucian86]

yeah Stan-The lucky Man, of course he is, do you think he could beat Nadal both guys healthy?, do you really think so?, no need to answer

Exactly what I was saying !

Of course he can beat him ! Nadal is human, like everybody else.
If I had to bet at 6-3 2-0 on somebody, maybe I would have put my money on Rafa anyway but that's far from being the certain outcome. I said to myself watching the first set that I don't believe Wawa would keep this rhythm. What if he did instead like Tsonga did in 2008 ? The past is not always a good predictor of the future. If Wawrinka beat Djokovic after so many matches, why he couldn't do the same thing against Nadal ?

What did I just tols you Djarvik; his fans are really convinced that if he's at 100%, he's basically unbeatable.
Far from it; Nadal is a defensive player; if a good offensive player would theoretically play all the match at his full potential, it would break down Nadal. That's physics since Nadal is not able to hit winners like other players do. Defense wins more matches in the long run. Offence reaches a higher level of tennis though. That's why if Nadal would play this final over and over again, ceteris paribus, he would win most of the matches. In a single encounter though, you never know what might be the outcome.

And let me say that after how Wawrinka played in the first set and at the beginning of the second, saying that he had no chances of winning that match, it's just ungrateful.

[BrushedBigJJ]

The past is not always a good predictor of the future. If Wawrinka beat Djokovic after so many matches, why he couldn't do the same thing against Nadal ?

I totally agree with this, but it wasn't that he beat him but he took him to 5 sets 3 times in a row. That's not luck. So him beating Novak shouldn't be shocking(it was still an upset) he could have won all three. He played nadal like he did Novak in the first set, and as long as he maintained that level long enough the match was on his racket, injury or no injury.

[Murderface84]

Yeah, but what you suggest goes pretty much against the type of player Nadal is. You saying he had some sort of injury and he "over played" it? ...against a guy that looked good for 1 set? ...a guy that he never lost to?

...damn, he should have done that against Gulbis after nearly being bageled.

Nadal may play the time clock, may have tons of quirks, may play the injury time outs, but I do not believe for a second he will stop "trying" to win the match by starting to serve slow in second set and touching his back....for the next 3 sets....just to make sure in case he losses it looks like he was injured. Hell, he could have done that tons of time before in close matches, or after losing first sets....why start now? ...why change what he is ALL ABOUT now? ...he is THE guy you always think will come back from the dead and win, so he suddenly decided to change who he is at 2014 Australian Open, after 1st set? why?

I started typing but this is pretty much what I said, so I will just quote djarvik!!

If he says he's hurt and is acting the way he was acting, he's freaking hurt.

In my mind he's earned a certain level of respect where I don't even question this shit anymore

[Ali-Iqb93]

yeah Stan-The lucky Man, of course he is, do you think he could beat Nadal both guys healthy?, do you really think so?, no need to answer, if he can beat a healthy Nadal, the number 1( and i say healthy because according to your posts Nadal is always making up injuries, and this time he was also making it up) then he will have a super year

Clearly nadal was HEALTHY in the first set and wawrinka outplayed him. Nadal was HEALTHY till 0-2 of second only untill according to him his serve at his service game at 0-2 caused him back problem. So wawrinka was clearly in command of the match until then. So your point that wawrinka can't beat a healthy nadal doesn't hold because he had no problem in 1st set and wawrinka won that set against a HEALTHY nadal after his 26th try. You're clearly taking the credit away from Stan

Stan was not lucky. And all credit to Stan for holding his nerves because it was very easy for him to lose the match after that 3rd set and the way rafa's injury disturbed his momentum