ITST Realism?

[straightcash05]

@Zaid

Is that so? Obskur is a very nice guy, and doesn't want to argue with people. But he told me himself that he's considering quiting the tour because of players like you (he mentioned you specifically) and your cheesy style of play.

Showing your net points means little. So you came to net 34 times in your match with Obskur, but that doesn't mean you weren't using the r1 on most of your shots that you didn't come to net on, I'm sure you used WELL over a 100 r1 shots and didn't come to net in a match that close that surely had alot of points played. Also, you won 24/34 of those points, when you're using r1 alot on shots and not coming to net on most of them, it's going to make it harder to hit the right passing shot because the opponent can't know if you're coming or not. Thus it makes your net play more effective and is definitely cheesy.

I'm not making anything up, I might be an asshole, but I don't lie about any tactics people use. Obskur told me you spammed them continuously in your matches with him, is he a liar too? He's about as nice and fair as you can be, surely we're both not delusional.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Ok, now we need to mark a line between what is officially cheesy and what is tough to handle.

Playing with R1 is forbidden by ITST rules? I'm asking, cause the famous "cheesy statement" says nothing about that.
Then I must assume this tactic is allowed here, so where is the problem?
It's a near "crossing line" playing? Probably, probably not, but it's not the point.

And please, don't start again with "I want to have fun, etc. etc.", cause I've just expressed my opinion about that.

So, if it's a tactic you consider cheesy, well, it's just your problem I think.
The fact you can't handle it doesn't mean it's cheesy.
And this counts for every player in ITST and WT you face, not only Zaid.

And by the way I think that if some guy uses always the same tactic, he will lose the surprise effect sooner or later, cause you're supposed to find out a way to "bypass" his playing.
Unless he's incredibly good in whatever he does.

[ICEMAN_9588]

You're totally right here, agree again with everything you said. Only difference between us seems to be our contrasting level of acceptance for the nature of ITST competition. You seem more practical and understand that it's just another medium for competition and can accept that people play to win vs. to enjoy the game. For me, it's a bit different.

The way I play itst is the way I play friendly matches; the fact that people have a non-competitive style and a competitive style is I guess is what bothers me. This is not how this tour used to be; the initial slew of top players loved to win, but didn't compromise the integrity of the intended realism of this tour to win like many do today; the mentality of today's itst player is different from those in the past--that is my biggest disappointment.

I think it depends by the fact that I'm not playing online since so long as you do.
When I was a beginner in WT, I was just like you now. I only wanted to understand how it worked.
And I usually lost the majority of my matches, but then I started to get better and better, to win, and I liked it.
Now I often win, and yes, I still like it. I see nothing bad in that.

But I often get insulted too. And here's what I think about this situation: all the players that have offended me in my online "career", were people I had just defeated.
All the great players I've faced, all of them, always told me "well played, nice match" (and vice versa), no matter if they won or lost.
Of course we usually play using all our best shot, we leave everyhing on court, so probably you wouldn't like it too, but the key is the "spirit".
We try all we can to win, but it's always a fair contest.

But, cause of these reasons, I've realized that WT is not the place to have fun. People want to win.
And ITST isn't different. Maybe in the past it wasnt like that, but obviously it couldn't last forever.
Now most of the new players (me included) come from World Tour, so I can understand why the "spirit" of the ITST is changed.

PS But I have to say this too: when a guy insults me, next time I face him I don't play to win, I play to kill.
Cause man, you DESERVE to be punished LOL

[straightcash05]

I'm not sure if it is in the cheesy thread, may not be, but it was talked about at one point.

I did talk to Djarvik about this recently, and he said that while it's not forbidden and a hard tactic to restrict, it is a cheesy tactic.

Most players don't consider it so because they use it. And not many players actually post their thoughts on here, so can't really know how many people do or don't think so.

What I do know is none of the top players from last year or the year before used r1 on shots intentionally a lot. Not a single one, and for the most part neither did the lower level players. It's been the last few months that people have started to use it as a tactic often. The r1 serve was used by a few people, and many people thought that was cheesy. The r1 shot wasn't used though, so there wasn't much talk about it.

It is a cheesy tactic, do you see players running in 2-3 steps then immediately backing up (no matter the position) in real tennis? Hell no, it would leave them in a terrible position. On this game it doesn't, you can recover--with the r1--and be in good position. When you go forward, you should keep going forward, this is the most unrealistic movement you can do on here. Yes, it is cheesy.

It does give you an advantage if used right and zaid uses it well as he's been doing it for months.

Also, I haven'teven played him in like 2 months. I beat him 7-5, 6-3 the last time I played Zaid. He was utterly abusing r1 serves and shots in that match as well, I adjusted and won, didn't even face a break point (he was r1 serving, then would hit an r1 shot right after, made it hard to get into his serve, there was no patch in that match). Now, i'm sure i'd lose badly against him as he has obviously improved, he plays all the time, and i don't really play much these days either. He also switched to an Approach Shots expert setup, he was using Neuwirth and was spamming the r1 shots, he obviously realised that using an ASE setup would improve his game vastly as he spams r1 shots.

It is clearly cheesy, especially if used with an ASE setup. I'm done with this, nothing will be done about it either way, just a waste of time to talk about it.

[Rob ITST]

I agree about the R1 shots - cheesy as hell when used as a "fake" approach shot.

The button is labeled as the approach shot button, so if you use it for anything other than coming to net, it's a clear exploit of a flaw in the game.

[zaid137]

straightcash ... again you avoided answering about autopositioning . now we are done talking about r1 , would you please answer my Q about autopositioning . ??

why would i , when i create a player , add many points to the defense ?? the answer is to increase my player speed . so i can get more balls back .
but whoever uses autopositioning trick , they put very few points to defense because they know they can compensate for the speed by using the cheesy autopositioning , and they add more points to offense so they gain more power and finish points faster .they become so tough to beat , imagine a player with so much speed and power .. who can stop him ??

question and i want you to answer me with yes or no .

if there is a trick that makes a 57 speed player get every ball back , runs like super sonic , change direction so fast (no one can wrong foot him ) , recover from unbalanced positions so fast and hit harder shots with crazy angles , is that trick cheesy or not ??

please i want your answer mr.lawyer OR YOU ARE GOING TO AVOID AGAIN. in other words what benefits you and your friends is allowed but what benefits your opponent is NOT !!!

[advocateof04]

I agree about the R1 shots - cheesy as hell when used as a "fake" approach shot.

The button is labeled as the approach shot button, so if you use it for anything other than coming to net, it's a clear exploit of a flaw in the game.

This is exactly the type of thing I am talking about, players aren't violating written rules, but I feel most people are just as guilty by exploiting downfalls of the game and this is what upsets me; if we could enforce it, I believe a lot of "top" guys would be in trouble.

Honestly, I didn't even know this tactic existed (R1) and I have never created another character to try and tweak attributes. I honestly just sign on to have a good time. THinking about it, I did begin to notice that when I play the dominant players they defend their serves unusually well and I could never figure out why, but this (hovering with R1) definitely explains it maybe...another exploitation of flaws of the videogame.

And since this "rivarly" between Zaid and I perhaps is getting some attention now, I thought I'd explain the issue. When I first played with this guy I think I lost and then I won the 2nd match; they were both pretty entertaining and enjoyable, but his game changed significantly (in my opinion) the third match we played. I felt he was exploiting a lot of the tactics (ones previously mentioned) which are effective due to nature of game...this to me is cheesy, but impossible to be controlled for.

The only reason I was disappointed was because I had come to expect fun matches with him and I was totally thrown off by the new and improved zaid in such a short time period...now I know what to expect so no big deal. He seems nice for the most part, I just don't fancy his new game that much.

That's all...

[Ali-Iqb93]

I agree on the part that many players have started to use this autoposition.. I just don't know how players can run soo fast to impossible balls and recover so fast. Even when your opponent is at the same level as yours still they ll thrash you easily. You feel completely helpless. It's like you are playing against a wall.. So difficult to get the ball past them.. Even when their power is less than yours they hit the ball way harder than you.. And I ve been playing this game for long time so I can clearly tell the difference this autoposition has brought into the game of some guys with whom I have been practicing for soo long

[ICEMAN_9588]

After all this months, I still don't know what autopositioning exactly is (I mean, how it works).

[ICEMAN_9588]

I agree about the R1 shots - cheesy as hell when used as a "fake" approach shot.

The button is labeled as the approach shot button, so if you use it for anything other than coming to net, it's a clear exploit of a flaw in the game.

As advocate said before, ITST players are changed.
I think you should "update" your cheesy statement and make a real game guideline.
You say what can be done and what cannot be done.

I don't wanna play and then hear straightcash saying "you play cheesy cause of this or cause of that", just because at a certain point, I wanted to approach the net, but my shot wasn't good enough, so I decided to stay on the baseline.
Or cause I made 2 dropshots in the same game. Gods of Tennis, please forgive me....

I simply think if Zaid is so improved, R1 shots would make no difference if I'd face him...

[BrokeAddict]

R1 shots cheesy, only control shots cheesy, auto-positioning cheesy, angle shots cheesy. Ban the whole game already.

[advocateof04]

I agree about the R1 shots - cheesy as hell when used as a "fake" approach shot.

The button is labeled as the approach shot button, so if you use it for anything other than coming to net, it's a clear exploit of a flaw in the game.

As advocate said before, ITST players are changed.
I think you should "update" your cheesy statement and make a real game guideline.
You say what can be done and what cannot be done.

I don't wanna play and then hear straightcash saying "you play cheesy cause of this or cause of that", just because at a certain point, I wanted to approach the net, but my shot wasn't good enough, so I decided to stay on the baseline.
Or cause I made 2 dropshots in the same game. Gods of Tennis, please forgive me....

I simply think if Zaid is so improved, R1 shots would make no difference if I'd face him...

I don't think the solution is that simple mr ice. Back before players were using R1 the overeffectiveness of control shots was topic of discussion; this is nothing new. The problem is, these flaws of the game that me and many other players feel are "cheesy" cannot be added to an "updated" cheesy statement because it is impossible to enforce these rules. For example, we can easily reported players tramline serving or abusing drop shots because it is easy to detect; however, it's very difficult to distinguish a player using short control shots and one using power cross court shots; zaid always accuses me of using short cross courts myself, but in actuality, very few of them are control shots as I power up for the majority of my shots. You can also imagine it would also be nearly impossible to prove that a player is abusing R1 as well.

I feel this is the only reason these things aren't officially considered cheesy, I am very sure if they could be monitored they would have been put on the list a long time ago and the tour would be very different. What sucks is we actually need a list to regulate the tour, players should know better. Being cheesy to me doesn't just relate to a bunch of random rules, it's using tactics that exploit flaws in the game and give an unfair advantage to a player, period. Please refer to the cheesy statement page that so many of the control shot players build their game around and justify not doing being cheesy...before jumping to the list, read what djarvik says in introduction, I've extracted a few points:

"...cheesy" is a term used to describe a style of play that most players consider to be unfair. The style takes advantage of the games limitations, making it completely unrealistic compared to real life tennis."

-many players today prefer to use these limitations and simply take the blame off themselves and blame the manufacturer for everything and making shots effective...not acceptable to me and seems to violate this cheesy statement. Also, I've been criticized as of late for my desire for realism since this is just a video game, as you can see, realism is a big component to judging chessy-ness.

"...That said, there are universal "unwritten" rules concerning "cheesy" play. We've never had to make firm rules because the ITST community respects their existence. They involve playing fairly and not using the known "cheesy" tactics that lessen this game..."

-community used to be composed of players that universally valued realism over incorporating unrealistic strategies, as I have said before the community has sort of been corrupted by new mindsets and now we are becoming more reliant on written rules instead of self awareness of what should and shouldn't be done.

That's all...

[GeilerPferdBANNED]

I agree about the R1 shots - cheesy as hell when used as a "fake" approach shot.

The button is labeled as the approach shot button, so if you use it for anything other than coming to net, it's a clear exploit of a flaw in the game.

This is exactly the type of thing I am talking about, players aren't violating written rules, but I feel most people are just as guilty by exploiting downfalls of the game and this is what upsets me; if we could enforce it, I believe a lot of "top" guys would be in trouble.

Honestly, I didn't even know this tactic existed (R1) and I have never created another character to try and tweak attributes. I honestly just sign on to have a good time. THinking about it, I did begin to notice that when I play the dominant players they defend their serves unusually well and I could never figure out why, but this (hovering with R1) definitely explains it maybe...another exploitation of flaws of the videogame.

And since this "rivarly" between Zaid and I perhaps is getting some attention now, I thought I'd explain the issue. When I first played with this guy I think I lost and then I won the 2nd match; they were both pretty entertaining and enjoyable, but his game changed significantly (in my opinion) the third match we played. I felt he was exploiting a lot of the tactics (ones previously mentioned) which are effective due to nature of game...this to me is cheesy, but impossible to be controlled for.

The only reason I was disappointed was because I had come to expect fun matches with him and I was totally thrown off by the new and improved zaid in such a short time period...now I know what to expect so no big deal. He seems nice for the most part, I just don't fancy his new game that much.

That's all...

I agree on this. The game has become border line idiotic. Control shot after control shot - does one see this in real life?

[ICEMAN_9588]

These are all understandable things, but again, ITST "roster" has changed a lot lately.

I myself am one of those guys that still don't know exactly what you oldest players consider cheesy tactics.
Every day an user comes up with new complaint about another guy using this or that shot, this or that tactic, this or that style.

For example, in our match in Miami, I've played some R1 shots during the rally, but I didn't come to the net.
I wasn't trying to be cheating (and you didn't me accuse of that, let's make it clear, we shared gratefully accepted compliments after the match), but I played like that for 2 reasons:
1. Not always my approaching shot was so good as I expected, so I decided to stay back on the baseline.
2. I use R1 also to run faster in order to reach the ball, but in TS4 this button is to get to the net too, so it happened that I hit my running shot, but I wasn't so distant from the ball as I believed, and my players seems to go to the net (but he doesn't).

I think this things can happen to anyone during a match. Now you know I'm not trying to escape the rules or to take advantage from these game limitations you've mentioned before, but another guy could stop the match and accuse me of being cheesy.

Cause of this, I think every tactic could be "used" against his user. Yeah, just like when a police officer arrests you
But in the last months I've heard complaints about tactics and shots I used to consider totally normal during a match.
That's because I came from the "far west" of online TS4, and so many others like me.
So we get to the starting point, new players have not the same mentality of those guys "grown up" in ITST, so it's not surprising to me a situation like this.

PS But please, don't call me "Mr Ice", you make me feel old

[ICEMAN_9588]

.

I agree on this. The game has become border line idiotic. Control shot after control shot - does one see this in real life?[/quote]

How do you define a "control shot" in the real tennis?
You could consider it as a player that uses the speed of his opponent's shot to return it quickly and trying to anticipate the other's movement.

You see this shots a lot of time in real tennis. The problem is not the control shot itself, but the possibility to create insane and unrealistic angles with the right timing.
I can agree on this, for sure.
Not on the concept that control shots are unrealistic.