The problem with 100 power...

[tnypxl]

It's a massive crutch. It's easy mode. I refuse to create a 100 power setup for that reason.

I'll admit, there are a handful of good power players, 90+ and up, that have wiped the court with me. Then I've met some who suck nuts at rallies then once they get on serve, it's 140mph+ and wide every time. And if I'm lucky enough to return it perfectly, the ball moves so slow, they inside-out for the winner. Crutch.

There are ways to counter that strategy, but it's not nearly as full-proof as having 100 power on your side. Then you have to mention power player speed ratings. They're mostly in the high 40s and mid 50s. Then you have their reflexes which are similar to their speed. They are unreasonably fast and that stat seems almost irrelevant for power setups, since every shot causes weak returns.

The problem I have with power players is that most of them aren't good. I've had some success countering obnoxious power strategies. But in most cases I forfeit because it's not worth the frustration or time. But I will admit, that beating a power player is very satisfying.

So, now is your chance as a power player to speak up. What reason other than it being easier to play in world tour, do you have for such an obnoxious setup?

[ICEMAN_9588]

It's a massive crutch. It's easy mode. I refuse to create a 100 power setup for that reason.

They are unreasonably fast and that stat seems almost irrelevant for power setups, since every shot causes weak returns.

Try a 100 power player, just for a few matches, and you'll realize they're not so fast.
Or better, they can defend one, two, three shots (good users also 4), but the defense gets badder and badder after every opponent shot.

Yes, they can hit winners from every side of the courts, but I suggest you to face a defensive player (with Samala, or Welch, or Quah, or even Neuwirth) who knows how to use control shots, and then tell me if it's "easy".
Probably when I face these guys they think "Oh great, another idiot with 100 power" (well, some of them did not just think that, they also told me XD). I think "Ok, now I must be very precise with ball placement and have a nearly perfect shot timing", cause if I miss one, the rally turns against me and the point is over, in the majority of cases.

And anyway, the same thinking line counts for super-defensive guys. You said "most of them aren't good". Same thing I can say about users with coaches like Samala or Welch. Their only strategy: wide slice serve, hit O button all the time placing the ball in street cross court angles.

That's why I'm suggesting you to try.

[Agassi_Return]

It's a massive crutch. It's easy mode. I refuse to create a 100 power setup for that reason.

I'll admit, there are a handful of good power players, 90+ and up, that have wiped the court with me. Then I've met some who suck nuts at rallies then once they get on serve, it's 140mph+ and wide every time.
The problem I have with power players is that most of them aren't good. But in most cases I forfeit because it's not worth the frustration or time.

THIS! The point is most of them just absolutely suck but they figured out how to serve with 98/98 and hit winners with ace or the next shot, so they can win their serve game and make the whole game close even with their bad skills on playing rallys/tennis.

Yes, they can hit winners from every side of the courts, but I suggest you to face a defensive player (with Samala, or Welch, or Quah, or even Neuwirth) who knows how to use control shots, and then tell me if it's "easy".

Its definitly easier to hold your serve game with 98/98 setting (corner, outwide serve etc) and stay in the game.
If the guy sucks on timing and knows nothing about control shots he will lose badly with speed setting against defensive player who knows how to use control shots. With power setting he can still manage to win his serve game, if he knows how to serve.

And anyway, the same thinking line counts for super-defensive guys. You said "most of them aren't good". Same thing I can say about users with coaches like Samala or Welch. Their only strategy: wide slice serve, hit O button all the time placing the ball in street cross court angles.

Only using "O" (and without control shots) you will not win one game against a good power user cause they just overpower you. But using control shots you need to hit several shots on perfect timing and NOT only ONE perfect serve (for an ace) and just finish with the next point.

[ICEMAN_9588]

THIS! The point is most of them just absolutely suck but they figured out how to serve with 98/98 and hit winners with ace or the next shot, so they can win their serve game and make the whole game close even with their bad skills on playing rallys/tennis.

Yes, well, it's like a match between Isner and Nadal. Big John knows he must count on his first serve and forehand.
Rafa hopes to get into the rally.
Same thing in TS4. If you manage to start the rally against a 98/98, the more it goes on, the more he'll have chances to lose the point.

The real difference is that in TS4 you can hit 90% of first serves, and if you miss one, you can hit a power 2nd serve too without risks..
Same thing for defensive guys. Control shots allow you to find ridicolous angles during the rally, and the game allows you to succesfully recover some almost-impossible shots.

Its definitly easier to hold your serve game with 98/98 setting (corner, outwide serve etc) and stay in the game.
If the guy sucks on timing and knows nothing about control shots he will lose badly with speed setting against defensive player who knows how to use control shots. With power setting he can still manage to win his serve game, if he knows how to serve.

Exactly what I was saying. But again, it works the same in real tennis, the difference is percentage of first serve and unforced/forced errors.

Only using "O" (and without control shots) you will not win one game against a good power user cause they just overpower you. But using control shots you need to hit several shots on perfect timing and NOT only ONE perfect serve (for an ace) and just finish with the next point.

In fact I was saying that guys that suck using defensive setting have only one tactic: O button and street angles all the time.
Of course it isn't enough. Using control shots you need to hit several shots with perfect timing: true.
But I just told you before: that counts for power players (with power shots) too.

Example: I'm playing a Samala guy who is very good in the game. Then it comes a ball I can turn around and hit my inside out.
I have to be perfect, no matter if I'll use O or X button, street or wide angle. Let's say I'm gonna place the ball good, but not perfect. The guy hits street angle cross court backhand with control shot.
Then , the ball comes to me fast and street on my backhand side (that is my worst shot, or anyway is worse than my opponent's backhand).
In that moment, I can do only one thing: going down the line, cause I don't want to start a backhand-backhand rally.
But when I go down the line, mi ball has to be near the intersection of the court lines to be really effective.
And it's not always enough, cause my opponent is very fast (0-5-15 gives you 72 speed, that's huge) and could reach it without problems.
Then the rally turns against me. In two shots.

Summing up, if my inside-out is not perfect, the ball turns back very fast so I won't have so much time to fully load my power shot. Then I have to hit a down the line backhand that has to be more perfect than the previous inside-out fh.
Or I can slow down with a slice, but this would mean starting a rally I have a few chances to win.

I'm saying defensive is easier to play than offensive power? No, but every style has his advantages and handicaps.

[BrushedBigJJ]

The only thing that can't be countered is 98/98. There are things you can do to slow it down but there is no counter because you are locked into a normal shot return. If you could choose before the serve to do a power shot or a control shot things would be different. The server knows ur locked into a certain type of return and takes full advantage. Topspin 3 the server had a whole lot more to worry about after the return.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Well, agst huge servers I always try to return with slice.
Especially if they use slice serve too. It's something that counts for every kind of player, but of course slice serves work better with 98/98 setup.

[C4iLL]

Always the so useless debates on the coaches issues... You will definitely never stop about that

[Agassi_Return]

Yes, well, it's like a match between Isner and Nadal. Big John knows he must count on his first serve and forehand.
The real difference is that in TS4 you can hit 90% of first serves, and if you miss one, you can hit a power 2nd serve too without risks..
Same thing for defensive guys. Control shots allow you to find ridicolous angles during the rally, and the game allows you to succesfully recover some almost-impossible shots.

You are right but there are a few important points you forget to mention. If the power guy hits his serve on lines and with 230 kmh on first and second serve its very hard to get in rally. He also can use corner serve and outwide serve which makes it much harder to get in a rally. Even if you play good return (dont forget the return stutter bug where the player freezes for 0,5-1 second) your opponent can still hit the winner with power shot and the reason is because all shots are more accurate and almost no unforced/forced errors compare to real life. So before you can play ridicolous angles you need to get in the rally and that is very hard against guys who knows how to serve with 98/98 or 91/100 even if they suck only playing tennis or rallys. Thats why these power settings are ridicolous and need less skill.

You are also right on this one but again you forgot one important point.
Example: I'm playing a Samala guy who is very good in the game. Then it comes a ball I can turn around and hit my inside out.
I have to be perfect, no matter if I'll use O or X button, street or wide angle. Let's say I'm gonna place the ball good, but not perfect. The guy hits street angle cross court backhand with control shot.
Then , the ball comes to me fast and street on my backhand side (that is my worst shot, or anyway is worse than my opponent's backhand).
I'm saying defensive is easier to play than offensive power? No, but every style has his advantages and handicaps.

You are talking about matches between TOP defence player vs TOP power player.
My point is to find out which setting require less kill to be competitive.

So let just imagine a match between an avarage player who uses roddick and another avarage guy who uses chang. Both sucks on rallys. No one uses control shots. So who is gonna win the match?

Match1:

Serve: The guy who uses roddick can serve with 220 kmph on lines cause he knows how to serve.
Advantage for the power guy.

Rallys:
Playing with chang and hitting a shot with bad timing will leed to short ball without any power.
Playing with roddick and hitting a shot with bad timing the ball will still land near the baseline and will have enough power.
Due to last patch top spin and slice shots do not have that length so they are much more shorter. A good timed top spin shot with chang is still slow and short against power 90.
Playing against Power 90-100 you have less time to react on timing of your shots and positing your player.Of course chang have more speed so its easier to positioning your player but 92 speed is still slowlier as a shot with power 90.
Advantage for the power guy.

At the end the roddick guy will just overpower the chang guy and win the game 3-0 3-0, 3-1 3-0, 3-1 3-1.

Match 2:

The avarage "Roddick" guy (from match1) decided to pick chang. He faces one of the TOP defence players who also plays with chang and uses control shots.

Serve: The avarage guy cant use serve as a weapon anymore so he need to make his points on rallys but...

Rally: ...he sucks on rallys and hit only 50% of his normal shots by perfect timing.

At the end the TOP guy destroys the avarage guy 3-0 3-0

Match3:

The avarage "Roddick" guy (from match 1 and 2) decided to switch back to Roddick and faces again the TOP defence player who plays with chang again and uses control shots.

Serve: The avarage guy serves on lines, uses corner serve and hit serves with 220kmph on first and second serve. So he can hold his serve and be competitive. But when the top guy plays a good return and catches the next shot the avarage guys loses almost all the played rallys because....

Rally: ...he sucks on rallys and hit only 50% of his normal shots by perfect timing.

At the end the avarage guy loses the match 4-3 4-3 but compare to match 2 he makes the game more closer only due to the serve and power.

You now unterstand what i trying to say? Using 98/98 and knowing how to serve makes you much more competitive (as an avarage player) as playing with defence baseliner setting. Why? Due to the points mentioned above. You can win matches easily against other avarage opponents who uses defence settings and you have much MORE chances to win a game against top guy who plays with defence setting and control shots.

Besides all these points there als one more reason why 98/98, 91/100 works so good even if you are an avarage player. There is NOT only ONE setting in WT Mode which fits the agassi, joker or murray attributes. Yes you can build a S&V player with high reflexes (and "diesel return" skill) but due to bad FH/BD and low power attributes its not possible to play the same returns as with agassi, joker, murray. So all the 98/98 power guys have zero risk to get countered by a powerfull (agassi) return.

[ICEMAN_9588]

You are right but there are a few important points you forget to mention. If the power guy hits his serve on lines and with 230 kmh on first and second serve its very hard to get in rally. He also can use corner serve and outwide serve which makes it much harder to get in a rally. Even if you play good return (dont forget the return stutter bug where the player freezes for 0,5-1 second) your opponent can still hit the winner with power shot and the reason is because all shots are more accurate and almost no unforced/forced errors compare to real life. So before you can play ridicolous angles you need to get in the rally and that is very hard against guys who knows how to serve with 98/98 or 91/100 even if they suck only playing tennis or rallys. Thats why these power settings are ridicolous and need less skill.

Well, I actually mentioned all this stuff when I've made the comparison with a match between Isner and Nadal.
Isner can hit 230 kmh serve. What he can't do is playing with 85-90% of first serve in. Unless he is in some sort of "God of Tennis" mode.
What he also can't do is take a huge risk on 2nd serve: I mean, Isner's 2nd serve sometimes is faster than 1st serves of a lot of player, but of course he cannot shoot it at the same speed of the 1st serve.

Same thing for Nadal: he cannot find street cross court angles with is forehand all the time, he can't get every ball back with great precision.

I told you: difference is that TS4 allows you to do all these things REGULARLY.
And that's a weak point of the game.
We're saying the same thing, but in different ways.

You are talking about matches between TOP defence player vs TOP power player.
My point is to find out which setting require less kill to be competitive.

So let just imagine a match between an avarage player who uses roddick and another avarage guy who uses chang. Both sucks on rallys. No one uses control shots. So who is gonna win the match?

I've readt all of your speech, but to me there's a problem in your "intro".
You're talking about average player, but who's really "average" in ITST? Nobody here is a rookie, everybody knows about advanced serve technique, control shots, coaches, tactics, skills...

So you could even be right about that (not 100%, but substantially you're right), but that's a "problem" of average players.
Now, if I face an "average" user with 98/98, I have no problem to defeat him: yes, sometimes I need the tie break, but my win is never really in jeopardy.
Same thing against average defensive players.

I mean, we're talking about this from an ITST prospective, right?

[tnypxl]

Try a 100 power player, just for a few matches, and you'll realize they're not so fast.
Or better, they can defend one, two, three shots (good users also 4), but the defense gets badder and badder after every opponent shot.

Yes, but every shot is fast and hard. The accuracy of their shots decline. But the power and speed decreases very little. When you're hitting hard and fast like that all match, it's hard for anyone to counter that without being cheesy. The fact of the matter is that power players dominate low to mid level world tour matches. But they dominate for ALL the wrong reasons. It's not skill, it's all stats.

When I walk into a match with a power player, I automatically know it's about stats and the margins afforded to me as a non-power player are practically non-existent. I have to play a perfect match with 90% of my shots also being perfect, where as power players get to mash buttons until I just start producing weak shots. Doesn't matter if those shots are too soon, too later or perfect, they're always fast, hard and incredibly difficult to return with any hope of a decent rally to follow.

[ICEMAN_9588]

At this point I don't know what to say to you.
I've never had problems against average power players. I mean, they are the easiest to defeat to me with control shots, if I use, for example, a coach like Neuwirth.

If I face a great user, it's gonna be a tough match both if he uses power and defensive settings.

Maybe it's just a matter of personal feelings about the game.

[Agassi_Return]

I mean, we're talking about this from an ITST prospective, right?

I thought we are talking about WT? ...thats why you and me used 98/98 100/91 settings as an example.

Now, if I face an "average" user with 98/98, I have no problem to defeat him: yes, sometimes I need the tie break, but my win is never really in jeopardy.

Yep but its just frustrating to play against these guys AND knowing my opponent have zero skill and would lose 3-0 3-0 without that power setting. Instead I need to go in tie break to win the match. -.-

What i hope for TS5:

- Much more UE and errors when you hitting the ball by bad timing. Especially when you have a bad position to your shot.
- Second serve should be much more risky.
- No corner seve!
- Scrap the 98/98, 94/94,100/91, 96/89 Settings. Same for Welch.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Well, I have to say I like playing the more I can with my Neuwirth player.
I use it to practice for ITST, and I admit it's pretty fun.

Just today I've defeated a 100 power player in Dublin Open Final (WT). After 1st set he started serving from tramlines, and this tells the entire story...

[tnypxl]

Well, I have to say I like playing the more I can with my Neuwirth player.
I use it to practice for ITST, and I admit it's pretty fun.

Just today I've defeated a 100 power player in Dublin Open Final (WT). After 1st set he started serving from tramlines, and this tells the entire story...

Pretty much.