Countering cheese

[Rob ITST]

We all want cheese-free matches, and that will continue to be our goal. However, there is a skill to beating cheese, and it can help you whenever you do come across a cheeser - whether it is here or in WT. So, if you know a good way to counter a certain tactic, post it here so everyone can benefit.

Also, if you have a way to record matches, a good example to go with the tip will be helpful.

I'll start....

Problem: Your opponent is hitting glitch returns.

Solution: Serve and Volley.

Glitch returns are slow and high - perfect for easy put-aways at net. Hit the serve, charge in, and use the power volley. Not only is this effective against glitch returns, but it works against any high, deep return, so it's a very valuable weapon to add to your game.

Problem: You opponent is abusing drop shots.

Solution: Fight fire with fire.

The first thing is to make sure you do not pre-press. When you pre-press, you don't have a chance to select the right shot to counter a drop. When the drop comes, hold RB (to make it an approach shot), use a control drop shot, and come in behind it. The next shot should be a weak ball that you can easily volley for a winner. To keep your opponent guessing, mix in drop shots with power slices - they look the same, so they will not be able to read your shot.

[BluudyEEfingaz]

Great advice! The constant dropshot is a problem for me usually to counter. (i.e. Hingis w/ IR) I will try this tactic.

[KDZaster]

THIS!
THIS is what playing to win is!
People who use the strongest tactics, counters against the strongest tactics, counters against the counters! This is YOMI!!!
THIS is why "cheese" isn't "broken", because there are hard counters against them and doing cheese them could cost you the point if countered!

Counters like this are the difference between an unstoppable, unfair tactic, and just a really strong tactic that requires your full attention to stop.

I love you RobITST.
I would say no ****, but I'd be lying to you and myself.

[KDZaster]

that's supposed to say homosapien without sapien. I love you

[safe_as_milk_]

THIS!
THIS is what playing to win is!
People who use the strongest tactics, counters against the strongest tactics, counters against the counters! This is YOMI!!!
THIS is why "cheese" isn't "broken", because there are hard counters against them and doing cheese them could cost you the point if countered!

You see a lot of this on WT, and you've played matches here, presumably by the rules, so surely you can see that the games have a completely different dynamic when cheese-free. I'm not as much as a reality fiend as some people, I don't demand or expect a completely accurate tennis simulation, but I find it more enjoyable to play and construct points in a way that resembles actual tennis. You can surely see I'm not alone in this either. When I first got the game I played the cheesiest player I'd ever come across and got frustrated and sent him a message. He replied saying he'd paid for the game and can play it however he likes. And he was right. I mightn't like the way he played but on World Tour I've got no right to say how someone else should play. That's surely one of the reasons ITST is here. If your fun is to be had pushing the mechanics of the game then you'll find like minded opponents on World Tour. If you like playing in a different way, you'll find like minded people on here...

This thread could be helpful either way. I'd really like to know what can be done (if anything) against this lethal combination- 98 power and serve, Serve Stick Beserker and tramline serving. Normally if someone's tramline serving I'll stand further out wide and slice it back up to them, but if they have serve stick beserker they can just stick it down the line. I played a guy who did that well and I honestly couldn't think of one possible thing I could've done differently to get into those points.

[LokiSharpShootr]

THIS!
THIS is what playing to win is!
People who use the strongest tactics, counters against the strongest tactics, counters against the counters! This is YOMI!!!
THIS is why "cheese" isn't "broken", because there are hard counters against them and doing cheese them could cost you the point if countered!

You see a lot of this on WT, and you've played matches here, presumably by the rules, so surely you can see that the games have a completely different dynamic when cheese-free. I'm not as much as a reality fiend as some people, I don't demand or expect a completely accurate tennis simulation, but I find it more enjoyable to play and construct points in a way that resembles actual tennis. You can surely see I'm not alone in this either. When I first got the game I played the cheesiest player I'd ever come across and got frustrated and sent him a message. He replied saying he'd paid for the game and can play it however he likes. And he was right. I mightn't like the way he played but on World Tour I've got no right to say how someone else should play. That's surely one of the reasons ITST is here. If your fun is to be had pushing the mechanics of the game then you'll find like minded opponents on World Tour. If you like playing in a different way, you'll find like minded people on here...

This thread could be helpful either way. I'd really like to know what can be done (if anything) against this lethal combination- 98 power and serve, Serve Stick Beserker and tramline serving. Normally if someone's tramline serving I'll stand further out wide and slice it back up to them, but if they have serve stick beserker they can just stick it down the line. I played a guy who did that well and I honestly couldn't think of one possible thing I could've done differently to get into those points.

I find that returning lobs might give you time to repositioning yourself, that works not only against tramline but also against people who abuse the slice wide serve.

[RainingAmoeba79]

I usually do deep slice up the middle, but i agree about 98 98 tramliners.

[djarvik]

I don't think Rob's intent was that we should all now be using Cheese tactics and countering it with Cheese tactics This is merely to help you "deal" with should you encounter it. As you know, by the rules, you cannot quit the matches citing cheese. You have to finish it.

Personally, best anti-cheese tactic for me is not to pre-press, not to commit to a shot. Keeping your options open helps a lot. For example when I serve and I think Glitch return maybe coming, I would let my player backpedal as usual, then would hit a control top spin deep mid court. I know the tendency for the most players is to serve then imidiatly charge up your next shot, misplaced aggression if you will but try to do it my way, you maybe able to neutralize one or two glitch returns, enough to win that tie break.

[jayl0ve]

All this is fine- talk away, but can we stop using that freaking word, 'cheese'??

What are we, teenagers?? DOOOD THAT'S SO CHEESY OMG STOP IT NOT FAIR It just sounds stupid. Like...very stupid.

Corny, cheap, broken- these are all much better adjectives and don't make you feel 1,000% ridiculous when saying it.

And Al, the sentence 'Counter cheesy tactics with cheesy tactics' is a paradox according to the rules of 'cheesy' that you've basically established.

If the tactic can be countered then it can be argued it's not 'broken', thus there is no 'moral issue' of countering certain tactics with certain other tactics. Hope that makes sense, don't care if it doesn't to be honest.

[Rob ITST]

I agree with you, Jon, I never liked the word for the same reasons you say - but everyone uses it, so I just go with it.

I rather use "cheap" for something like a drop shot or tramline serve - it can be countered, but it's still way too effective considering how easy it is to execute.

Anyway, as Djarvik said, this isn't meant to say that "cheese" is ok - it's just that things are better if players know how to counter it. If it doesn't help people win many matches, they're less likely to risk resorting to it in a tournament.

[Rob ITST]

I'd really like to know what can be done (if anything) against this lethal combination- 98 power and serve, Serve Stick Beserker and tramline serving. Normally if someone's tramline serving I'll stand further out wide and slice it back up to them, but if they have serve stick beserker they can just stick it down the line. I played a guy who did that well and I honestly couldn't think of one possible thing I could've done differently to get into those points.

I do whatever I can to give myself time to get back to the center of the court. LookiShartpShooter said he uses lobs, so that probably works. I usually just back up a bit, and loop a deep topspin shot crosscourt. And sometimes go for the flat down-the-line winner - partly because you might get a clean winner off of it, and partly just to mix it up.

[jayl0ve]

I just play 2K open so I've never played anybody with a bazillion in power and SSB, but plenty of 'tramline servers'.

I usually lob them (they are usually not the smartest players and are not gonna get in position to hit a smash on the bounce like they should, most of the time), go for an extreme cross-court FOREHAND POWER SLICE ( ), or like Rob said go straight up the line with a flat shot, but it's hard to do that when y ou're playing as Rafter

It starts getting personal for me when people serve out wide and do the whole ZPS thing so I will do anything to beat these f**kers. And you can guarantee they get a message, usually just a simple 'LOL'. But that's enough to throw a lot of people into a rage

[LokiSharpShootr]

Have you guys ever played on WT

INJOUABLE or LUCOBOSS?

they use TI/MD comined with tramline service and zps slice serve, and they are good players actually, not great but good players, and its so anoying to play both of these guys.

Oh and and NEXUS who does 1000 dropshots a game.

[jayl0ve]

Yeah I played 'lucoboss' in TS2, although I think he had a different screenname. I still remember the time I ran into him in a ranked match though, I was ranked 90 something and he was something like #10. I won despite his hitting pretty much nothing but drop shots the entire match

[VillaJ100]

What is seriously wrong with these people. Its one thing being 8 and being like "YARR I GOTS TOPSPIN4 LETS HIT LOADSA DROPSHOTS" but buying game after game in the series just to hit dropshots, i dont know if they have some sort of brain disease and they get a kick out of it but i just dont understand it at all.