Tour de France 2011

by **Amazing Matheja** » Sat, 23 Jul 2011 20:29

Haha! Again, before naming those athletes "doping freak", i'd like to know how it is in other sports... Soccer, Tennis, NBA, NFL, Athletism, swimming, etc... I am totally sure we would be "shocked"... (And again, what do they do to "clean" their sports? Nothing... Compared to what cycling do...)

And about Rasmussen... What do you mean Berson? That he was not doped?... If so, I guess he would have quit the Tour De France saying, no, shouting "I'm innocent! It's injustice here!!!" But he did not... He left without a word... A few time after he was positive with "Dynepo" in his blood...
Rasmussen is one of the biggest joke ever in cycling! I watch cycling since 87, or 88, and I had never ever seen someone grabbing the breaks in a turn in the Alpes d'Huez... Rasmussen did this... He was turning legs so fast!!! Around the 700 KW/H wich is totally supernatural (scientificly proved) in the Alpes d'Huez... What a joke this guy was...

by **OuiMr BersonBANNED** » Sat, 23 Jul 2011 21:05

Amazing Matheja wrote:Haha! Again, before naming those athletes "doping freak", i'd like to know how it is in other sports... Soccer, Tennis, NBA, NFL, Athletism, swimming, etc... I am totally sure we would be "shocked"... (And again, what do they do to "clean" their sports? Nothing... Compared to what cycling do...)

And about Rasmussen... What do you mean Berson? That he was not doped?... If so, I guess he would have quit the Tour De France saying, no, shouting "I'm innocent! It's injustice here!!!" But he did not... He left without a word... A few time after he was positive with "Dynepo" in his blood...
Rasmussen is one of the biggest joke ever in cycling! I watch cycling since 87, or 88, and I had never ever seen someone grabbing the breaks in a turn in the Alpes d'Huez... Rasmussen did this... He was turning legs so fast!!! Around the 700 KW/H wich is totally supernatural (scientificly proved) in the Alpes d'Huez... What a joke this guy was...

I don't like Rasmussen, but he got 0 positive control.
Everybody have suspicions on him like on Contador , Schelck ... but we have no proof of doping, he should have won this tour.

by **jayl0ve** » Sun, 24 Jul 2011 03:00

Amazing Matheja wrote:Haha! Again, before naming those athletes "doping freak", i'd like to know how it is in other sports... Soccer, Tennis, NBA, NFL, Athletism, swimming, etc... I am totally sure we would be "shocked"... (And again, what do they do to "clean" their sports? Nothing... Compared to what cycling do...)

And about Rasmussen... What do you mean Berson? That he was not doped?... If so, I guess he would have quit the Tour De France saying, no, shouting "I'm innocent! It's injustice here!!!" But he did not... He left without a word... A few time after he was positive with "Dynepo" in his blood...
Rasmussen is one of the biggest joke ever in cycling! I watch cycling since 87, or 88, and I had never ever seen someone grabbing the breaks in a turn in the Alpes d'Huez... Rasmussen did this... He was turning legs so fast!!! Around the 700 KW/H wich is totally supernatural (scientificly proved) in the Alpes d'Huez... What a joke this guy was...

I'm just curious, what do you mean by this??

by **OuiMr BersonBANNED** » Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:49

jayl0ve wrote:
Amazing Matheja wrote:Haha! Again, before naming those athletes "doping freak", i'd like to know how it is in other sports... Soccer, Tennis, NBA, NFL, Athletism, swimming, etc... I am totally sure we would be "shocked"... (And again, what do they do to "clean" their sports? Nothing... Compared to what cycling do...)

And about Rasmussen... What do you mean Berson? That he was not doped?... If so, I guess he would have quit the Tour De France saying, no, shouting "I'm innocent! It's injustice here!!!" But he did not... He left without a word... A few time after he was positive with "Dynepo" in his blood...
Rasmussen is one of the biggest joke ever in cycling! I watch cycling since 87, or 88, and I had never ever seen someone grabbing the breaks in a turn in the Alpes d'Huez... Rasmussen did this... He was turning legs so fast!!! Around the 700 KW/H wich is totally supernatural (scientificly proved) in the Alpes d'Huez... What a joke this guy was...

I'm just curious, what do you mean by this??

It one of the many system for show if a cyclist is doped.
I have only heard about a system developped by a French doctor for show if a cyclist is doped and How many he is doped, I don't know if Matheja means that.

The system calculate the muscle power of the rider.

If it's > 410 watts it's a good doping.
If it's > 430 watts it's a big doping
If it's > 450 watts it's a extremely big doping

The record is hold by Jan Ulrich with 480 watts during this stage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGEa39o ... r_embedded

With this system , Greg Lemond and Bernard Hinault and old time legend seems undoped (at least less doped) , their record are 345 watts.

NB : In 2007 , The TDF haven't got alpe d'huez, I think you mean Plateau de Beille, Rasmussen's record is 430 watts during Plateau de Beille stage.

NB2 : All the cyclists are doped , My cousin was a pro cyclist in late 1990s- early 2000s (present in 4 tour de france) and he told me it was required if you want to ride

by **Amazing Matheja** » Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:10

Arf!... Jaylove... You ask me to explain a thing that even in French I can hardly find the correct words...

I'm not a scientist, I work for French TV (mostly for sports on TV), and thanks to that I can speak with a lot of interesting/passionating people : Friends cameraman working on big events, and who are close to some champs, and, sometimes, I talk with scientist/specialists/former pros/trainers/champions (Sonny Anderson, Renaud Longuevre, Cedric Pioline, Sebastien Grosjean, Cyril Guimard, Vincent Barteau...)

So...

"a Watt is an instantaneous measure of power and is a product of force and speed. In electrical terms, the force is Voltage and speed is current (Amps); therefore, electrical power is Voltage Current. For a cyclist, the force is how hard he pushes on the pedals and the speed is how fast he turns the crank (rpm). The combination of these two things results in the cyclist’s power output, which is usually expressed in watts."
here is a nice example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aocdsujq ... 41&index=0
Thanx to a device attached to the rider (they do have it on the Tour De France too) you have the speed, the rpm (the speed the legs "turn" or "spin"), the heart rate, and the Watts! (the big numbers in the center).
You see that sometime it goes around the 600-700 Watts (and I said that it was "unhuman")... Well, here it's a big downhill, and it's on short time.
(when riders of the Tour can be around those 600-700 Watts long time, after some very hard stages, wind in face, and CLIMBING the Alpes d'Huez, the Plateau De Beille, the Galibier, Hautacam etc...).

What I said, Jaylove, was that Rasmussen (and a couple of riders who were with him too

) was so fast (it was not at the Alpes d'Huez... But in a similar big climbing) that he had to grab the breaks to slowdown while climbing! I (and guys I can talk with at my work) couldn't believe what I saw! I never saw this before! It was like he was in a descent or in a flat stage!...
It was then proved that what he was around the 700 Watts during almost all this climbing, during each of his numerous violent attacks... Which was proved to be unrealistic... Cause so far, your muscles, lungs, brain starts to lack O2...
At cruising speed (25-28 mph), pros typically put out about 220-270 Watts (depending on their position in the group), which is relatively easy for them. Most of them can produce over 500 Watts for 20 minutes and a few can top out at over 1,500 Watts for a 5-second sprint.
Beeing "radar-flashed" over 600 Watts in mountains (Rasmussen,...), and over 1600 Watts in sprints (Petacchi,...) is highly "suspicious"...

But, we must be aware that it's not the same for everybody! Some can go high on Watts, and some cannot : It can also depends on their size, their weight, and also the "size" of the heart, of the lumbs, etc...
And there, enters the term of VO2 Max. I'm not quite sure but it's something about how many O2 can your body (blood) bring to your muscle, lungs, and brain...
Here is an article talking of VO2 Max :
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07 ... o2max.html
I apologise to all Spanish guys, this is not meant to bash Alberto, but to try to explain what VO2 MAx is, and its "effects" during competition, and this is the only thing I founded...

And, about that Tour De France 2011, and the stages in Pyrenées, here is an article from the same website...
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/07 ... te-of.html

And here is the one after the Alpes stages, but before the Time-Trial stage...
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/07 ... tains.html

Warning : These articles may be a bit long to read (and for the one who doesn't like cycling it may be more than boring), but they are "precise", and it's the only ones I found in English...
Warning 2 : I'm not saying these guys from this site (sportsscientists - dot - com) are the absolute Truth, just taking these articles because they explain (more or less) the race in an "objective" scientist point of view... Not in a "journalist" point of view (creating drama to sell papers) - Well, that's what it looked like to me... Again, I don't say it's the absolute truth : they don't have personal datas from the athletes, etc....

@OuiMrBerson :

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rasmuss ... po-in-tour

You can say everything about the fact that he was not tested positive during a race... To me the lack of official proof is not a proof...

EDIT : Arf... Grilled by Berson! ^^ (Yeah, exactly what I meant... I shorter terms! ^^ But we don't agree about the numbers in Watts...)
Ullrich's "record" is now old stories bro'... I was told that rasmussen and co are the new guys in town with more than 600 Watts! :shock:

Wow! Your cousin was a pro!? Nice!... unfortunately he really was a pro-cyclist in the bad years... The darkest years in cycling I would say...
I heard even before pro; when you're U21, you also see a lot of "weird things"...

by **Saarbrigga** » Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:25

Amazing Matheja wrote:Haha! Again, before naming those athletes "doping freak", i'd like to know how it is in other sports... Soccer, Tennis, NBA, NFL, Athletism, swimming, etc... I am totally sure we would be "shocked"... (And again, what do they do to "clean" their sports? Nothing... Compared to what cycling do...)

Quote for truth! I don t understand why so many people belive Cycling is the most dirty sport of all.
FACT IS: You can improve in any sport by using performance enhancing drugs, even in Darts (there exist medical stuff which shuts down your nerves and you can held your hand more relaxed).

Something about the history:
Here s the all time list from the cycling hall of fame:

1. Eddy Merckx, BEL
2. Bernard Hinault, FRA
3. Lance Armstrong, USA
4. Jacques Anquetil, FRA
5. Fausto Coppi, ITA
6. Miguel Indurain, ESP
7. Gino Bartali, ITA
8. Louison Bobet, FRA
9. Felice Gimondi, ITA
10. Greg Lemond, USA
11. Alberto Contador, ESP
...
15. Jan Ullrich, GER

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/alltime25.asp

Would you agree more or less? I do. The Cannibal Merckx is still Nr. 1 ever, followed by the french badger Hinault.

by **Moralspain** » Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:58

Jan was my idol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtY_2fiorz8&feature=related

by **Saarbrigga** » Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:42

Yes he was such a great talent. If he would had the same intension like Armstrong, i am sure Lance wouldn t have won 7 straight Tours.

Jan was sick the last half year, he had the bourn out syndrom. But now he feels better.

Hey Xavi is Indurain still regarded as the greatest spanish Cyclist ever or has Contador colse the gap to him?
Miguel was an outstanding rider, very solid climber and a total munster in the time trials. I guess in 1-1 he would beat Contador.

by **Moralspain** » Mon, 25 Jul 2011 22:39

SchwingerMongo wrote:Yes he was such a great talent. If he would had the same intension like Armstrong, i am sure Lance wouldn t have won 7 straight Tours.

Jan was sick the last half year, he had the bourn out syndrom. But now he feels better.

Hey Xavi is Indurain still regarded as the greatest spanish Cyclist ever or has Contador colse the gap to him?
Miguel was an outstanding rider, very solid climber and a total munster in the time trials. I guess in 1-1 he would beat Contador.

Yep Indurain is still considered the greatest of all time in Spain.
What is interesting about all this stuff is that nowadays the best cyclists like Schleck, Contador etc are not great time trialist like Indurain, Ullrich, Armstrong

by **Saarbrigga** » Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:49

That s true.
Take a scale from 0-10, 5=Average, it would look like this.

Indurain was like:
Time Trial: 10
Climbing: 9

The same for Armstrong and Ullrich.

Contador is like:
Time Trial: 7
Climbing: 9

The Schleck brothers:
Time Trial: 4
Climbing: 9

Evans:
Time Trial: 9
Climbing: 8

They are a little bit like Marco Pantani was. Great climbers but lowsy time trialists.
The reason why they are the best right now, is simply because there s no better.
If Indurain, Ullrich and Armstrong would be there today, no one of them would win the tour, not Evans, not Schleck and not Contador.

Do you remember this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1EYB-VzVI

Indurain destroys Armstrong in time trial. He literally eat him up. :lol:

by **Sherlock 117** » Tue, 26 Jul 2011 03:26

SchwingerMongo wrote:That s true.
Take a scale from 0-10, 5=Average, it would look like this.

Indurain was like:
Time Trial: 10
Climbing: 9

The same for Armstrong and Ullrich.

Contador is like:
Time Trial: 7
Climbing: 9

The Schleck brothers:
Time Trial: 4
Climbing: 9

Evans:
Time Trial: 9
Climbing: 8

They are a little bit like Marco Pantani was. Great climbers but lowsy time trialists.
The reason why they are the best right now, is simply because there s no better.
If Indurain, Ullrich and Armstrong would be there today, no one of them would win the tour, not Evans, not Schleck and not Contador.

Do you remember this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1EYB-VzVI

Indurain destroys Armstrong in time trial. He literally eat him up.

The Schleck's are not great at the TT, but come on they aren't that bad. They both finished in the top 20 of the last time trial...

by **Amazing Matheja** » Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:37

I agree with Scherlock here...

To me :

Indurain :
Time Trial: 10
Climbing: 8

Armstrong :
Time Trial : 9
Mountain : 9

Ullrich :
Time Trial : 9
Mountain : 8

Contador is like:
Time Trial: 8-9
Climbing: 10

Schleck (Andy) :
Time Trial: 6-7
Climbing: 9

Evans:
Time Trial: 9
Climbing: 8

If Indurain, Ullrich and Armstrong would be there today, no one of them would win the tour, not Evans, not Schleck and not Contador.

Contador could have win I think... He's maybe the best climber ever (I think).

NB : I wrote Andy only, because I believe he's the one who can win the Tour... Franck is a good rider, but not as good as his little brother... far from it... (my opinion)

by **Saarbrigga** » Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:00

The best climber ever? What s about Bahamontes, Van Impe, Ocana, Pantani, Virenque etc?

by **Moralspain** » Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:07

We should check times to see who the best is or has been, and about the best time trialist Indurain all the way, i still remember the time trial stage in Luxembourg in 1992, awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVswAZcLI1s&feature=player_embedded#at=156

My top 3 (Time trial)

Indurain
Armstrong
Ullrich

My top 3 (Climbing)

Armstrong
Contador
Pantani

I can't talk about Eddy, Hinault etc, because i have never watched their races.

by **OuiMr BersonBANNED** » Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:41

SchwingerMongo wrote:The best climber ever? What s about Bahamontes, Van Impe, Ocana, Pantani, Virenque etc?

Virenque

I can't stop laughing
What about Anthony charteau ?

Tour de France 2011

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