Osama Bin Laden

[coke4]

I guess we will have to disagree on that. If the best way to lead by example, he should have blown himself up long ago.

When I say "leader", I dont necessarily mean it in a positive way. Very few "such" leaders got there by means of ideology/prophet-ering alone.

If he wanted to die and not be captured, he would kill himself.

I just can't "file" it in my mind, that a war mastermind, at such times, would reach for a gun to somehow protect himself or "stop" the intruders. Which leads only to one answer....the ol-time movie cliche of reaching for the gun as a means for suicide. Possible, I wont deny it. But I am more inclined with him wanting being captured, especially so as it would attract a HUGE amount of interest, attention to the "cause". And if he believe the cause to be just, then he wants attention. Most terrorists act are made to draw attention.

Him dying, is not helping his cause. Especially at this juncture, there is more damage to be done if he would be alive and captured. It is also my believe that this is one of the reasons the mission was to kill.

Similarly I could say if surrendering was what he wanted he should have done it a long time ago. He did not want to die or surrender, but when given the choice between the two, between prolonged suffering and almost instant relief, I would have thought that death would be the preferred option.

I am sure him being killed, not surrendering, has brought a lot of attention to the cause. The fact he was unarmed and was killed by Americans who went into Pakistani airspace without telling the authorities and took him out might raise support for Al Qaeda in the middle east.
Don't you think him being killed had drawn a lot of attention?

[djarvik]

He didn't want to surrender. But given the circumstances - I believe this would have been a wiser choice by him for his cause. The amount of attention received from a trial, that would have lasted years is simply immeasurable when comparing to the attention of being killed by Americans, that were hunting him down.

[Saarbrigga]

What do you think about his real beliefs?

Did he belief the same what he said all the time (if you be a suicide bomber you will go to paradise) or was he more interested in living because he didn t believe what he said?

[coke4]

He didn't want to surrender. But given the circumstances - I believe this would have been a wiser choice by him for his cause. The amount of attention received from a trial, that would have lasted years is simply immeasurable when comparing to the attention of being killed by Americans, that were hunting him down.

Nor did he wan't to die, but in the situation I feel it was the wiser option. Do you really think the trial would receive that much attention? I would have thought it would be done very much secretively.
Also don't you think that your average potential Al Qaeda member would be more inclined to join to fight the Americans who raid and kill unarmed Osama than the Americans who take Osama and give him a fair trial?

[djarvik]

What do you think about his real beliefs?

Did he belief the same what he said all the time (if you be a suicide bomber you will go to paradise) or was he more interested in living because he didn t believe what he said?

Excellent question. Worth a whole thread.

[djarvik]

He didn't want to surrender. But given the circumstances - I believe this would have been a wiser choice by him for his cause. The amount of attention received from a trial, that would have lasted years is simply immeasurable when comparing to the attention of being killed by Americans, that were hunting him down.

Nor did he wan't to die, but in the situation I feel it was the wiser option. Do you really think the trial would receive that much attention? I would have thought it would be done very much secretively.
Also don't you think that your average potential Al Qaeda member would be more inclined to join to fight the Americans who raid and kill unarmed Osama than the Americans who take Osama and give him a fair trial?

I think I already said that, but yeah, 100% more attention via capture - trial - execution.

[tigerofintegrity]

I lean more towards Djarvik's train of thought on this one. Surely, being such a brilliant criminal mastermind (which he was), he would have had backup plans in the likely future event that he was captured, ones that might twist the US government's arms enough to warrant the possibility of his release. I don't think he was anywhere near done with whatever he wanted to achieve and dying for him, was not on his list of options.

Secondly, I think logically speaking, the capture - trial - execution method would have sparked more anger and retaliation from his loyal followers than a quick hit. Secretive or not, the longer he is in US custody, the more attention he will get around the world and the more time the whole thing will fester in their minds. I believe Al Qaeda members would find it far, far harder to swallow if the US held their leader, judged him for his sins (which remember, they do not believe are sins) and executed him based on US views. Whereas killing him quick in a raid, well there's little hint of disrespect in that situation.

[coke4]

Fair enough, If you both think trial would get more attention than I would have to concede that you are probably right.
However, as I said earlier, I think Osama cared more about himself than the cause. And would have chose the easier, less painful way out.

@Tiger, if he had potentially big dirt, why wouldn't he have used it to call off the man hunt?

[Rob ITST]

I agree too that his capture would have received more attention, but I also believe he would rather be killed than captured - dying in battle is just more honorable than being captured/interrogated/tortured/etc. Honestly, I think killing him was what he and the government wanted. And I don't buy the "if he would rather die, he would have blown himself up long ago". I think he believed he could continue to hide.

Who knows though? This thread has moved to the subject of what was going through his mind the last moments before he died (besides the bullet)! I would love to know what he was thinking when he heard the helicopters landing - was there an "Oh shit!" moment when he knew it was over?

And there's no way he'd of gotten a public trial. It would have been held before a military tribunal, with him tried as a war criminal.

[Coolhand Texas]

@Coolhand? I don't consider myself particularly ignorant mate and have refrained, despite fairly heavy provocation in getting personal with any of the people expressing opinions here - it might be nice if you could manage the same thing? You didn't seem to consider me all that ignorant when we were discussing stuff on a thread from some time ago entitled 'the right to bear arms'? In case you've forgotten:

Hey, letting you know that I am doing a paper on this topic that you started, so if you have anything else you want to add, it would be greatly appreciated!

. It just sounds to me when you are arguing on here, that you would prefer the guy to be alive and free, and that just really gets under my skin and pisses me off.

About the ignorant part, shouldnt have said that. saying you were hard headed on this subject would have been better

I certainly dont find you to be an ignorant person overall

[DRII]

I picture this scenario:

You land in a helicopter at this giant compound, with 15ft concrete walls, barbed wire, etc. You're storming through the building, up flights of stairs, probably with a lot of shooting/yelling/flash grenades/other crazy chaotic shit going on. This is going on for 25 minutes. You see the guy you came for - himself a well trained, war hardened soldier; the world's most wanted man. When you approach him, he makes a move. You're not sure what he's doing, but he's not surrendering.

What's your next move? I know mine, and it ends with me being alive.

So he "makes a move" when more then a few soldiers with automatic weapons run into the room from all sides? ....which movie you took it out of? Scarface?

Not buying it. Not even close. Not even remotely close. He is a leader, not a soldier. The is a HUGE deference.

To me - this was an execution. I just wish they would say it straight up like that. No conspiracy, just say this was a mission to kill - mission accomplished.

...but surely the whole world would jump on US because of that.

im pretty sure when bin laden heard the sounds of helicopters he knew something was up ...his first initial move would probably be to grab some weapons to defend himself....the navy seals are an elite group of men on a mission to kill most of the time, not to capture. The U.S. knew for over a year bin laden was in that compound....in my mind the way it happened was perfect because all the attention was on the unrest of the muslim world such as libya, egypt, syria, etc. this was planned out from long ago---i guarantee it

This is the first thing you've said that I remotely agree with...

[AUSSIE_FABS]

I dubbed the american celebrations of his death with arabic In my head and it was just like when the fanatic muslims celebrate death of an enemy of islam. Just found it funny.

Also it would have being better for government to capture him and almost use him as some sort of example. Right now there is probably sh*tloads of propaganda in Al Qaeda about how he went down guns blazing or whatever and is a great martyr that they can idolise.

I still think it was practically assassination but I don't know governments reason for just killed him straight off the bat. It just too difficult to know anything regarding something this big and relying a lot of your info coming from defence sector of u.s gov lol.[/i]

[jayl0ve]

It's 10 o'clock...do you know your child is a f**king idiot?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/2011 ... owwhohewas

[AUSSIE_FABS]

I put more blame on parents and education tbh. Although it is their fault for being introverted.

It kinda annoys me how people don't want to educate themselves however I still think that the education system anywhere should lay down good default of awareness.

[djarvik]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestof ... cnn?hpt=C2

So the white house did make a false, or rather fabricated statement.

It looks more to me that they knew for sometime where he was....but something triggered the "move to kill" now. Maybe 9% jump in the approval polls for Obama has something to do with it... although this card may have been better to use a bit later.