Title pretty much says it all, but this thread (as suggested by Djarvik in another thread) is solely for the suggestions of the ITST players on what alterations need to be made on specific coaches
Instead of simply banning coaches to the point where we're only able to use silver ones (:roll:), let's list our issues with the coaches that seem to be giving too many stat points, or skill combinations that make players virtually unbeatable regardless of individual skill levels.
COACH ALTERATION PROPOSALS
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by JJ_DUBZ_87 » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 17:03
I should add that suggestions you make here for coach alterations will most likely be forwarded to 2K for upcoming patches based on the amount of feedback and complaints with certain coaches.
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by Hawkeye Miihawk » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 17:09
I'm doing a whole write up, right now, on coaches that have gotten my attention. I'm also adding my thoughts on skill modifications, MD I'm looking at you. I'll post it when I'm done. Yes plz this needs to be forwarded to 2k as well.
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by Coolhand Texas » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:37
I dont think monster defense is a big problem in my mind.
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by Crotatsuya » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:42
Just copied it over here:
I think the problem with Pei Jing Quah is, that she gives too much power in addition to very good fh/bh points + skills. If you could only use her while being skilled very defensively (0/2/18 something of that sort) and cut her power bonus and maybe fh/bh to 13 instead of 15 she will be no better than other baseline trainers. Take the power from her and Top Spin Invasion and Monster Defence will be nowhere near as lethal as it is right now.
I think the problem with Pei Jing Quah is, that she gives too much power in addition to very good fh/bh points + skills. If you could only use her while being skilled very defensively (0/2/18 something of that sort) and cut her power bonus and maybe fh/bh to 13 instead of 15 she will be no better than other baseline trainers. Take the power from her and Top Spin Invasion and Monster Defence will be nowhere near as lethal as it is right now.
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by JJ_DUBZ_87 » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:49
Coolhand Texas wrote:I dont think monster defense is a big problem in my mind.
I agree. It's more the stats associated with it that's giving ppl problems.
Keep in mind, IRL some players hit another gear when they're trailing in a match which is what Monster Defense does. The issue is with the topspin invasion and Pei Jing Quah's stat bonuses, added to MD, you create a super player. Her stats should be more defense tailored n slightly less impactful.
She should primarily be boosting speed n reflexes. You don't need groundstroke bonuses with TI.
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by Hawkeye Miihawk » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:05
My ideas on balancing coaches and skills. (All this was written on the assumption that returning serve, stamina, speed, and reflexes were tweaked. With the addition of more errors in the overall game, slicing toned down, etc. Practically all the stuff we’ve discussed in the Balancing thread.)
There were some other skills that appear really good now, such as reach swings expert, but we’ll have to wait and see how good it really is after the patch. I can’t see the future, but these are the coaches that I thought could rise to power were Pei Jing Quah balanced. Their points distribution were really good, and if tweaks are made to areas of the game I thought they would easily dominate the top coaches list. Some of them are really good right now; the only reason why they aren’t shining is because of Pei Jing Quah. Coaches/skills that are under the radar now could rise up after changes, so this is definitely a work in progress. I used many combinations to try and determine how good those coaches were, the skills they give, and tried to “balance” them from there.
Skills that need tweaking.
(1) Monster defense: I think this skill should become "You make less errors on your opponent's first game point". Your shots should not become more precise or effective, just less errors. This would not make the 2nd skill (instant rocket, topspin invasion, or whatever) 10x better than they already are. It would activate every time your opponent receives game point for the “first” time and for that time only. I’ll explain what I mean by the “first” time.
-Case 1: If your opponent is serving, and goes up Ad point, monster defense would activate, and you’ll make less errors. You play well and take it back to deuce. At deuce, monster defense deactivates. You lose the point and your opponent goes Ad up again. He has gained game point for the second time. Monster defense would activate again, and you’ll make less errors for the next point. If you win the point again and go back to deuce, monster defense would not be active for the deuce point, and so on.
-Case 2: If your opponent is serving and is up 40-0, monster defense would activate only for the next point played since your opponent has game point. If you win that point and the score becomes 40-15, monster defense would not be active for the next point, or the one after that. You would have to take it up to deuce, and your opponent would have to go up Ad point, for monster defense to become active again (Case 1).
The reason why I didn't say "make less errors when your opponent has game point" is because this would punish the person who fought hard to get up in points, like the current monster defense does. This way someone who is trailing 6-1 during the tie break, or down 0-40 can't just sleep and rely on monster defense to bring them back. Your opponent works so hard to get up 40-0 or 6-1 during the tie break, and the person who is down shouldn’t get to make less errors for 3 or 5 straight points, no. This way, characters with monster defense can come back, but they can’t come back ALL THE TIME, AND ANYTIME. They’ll make less errors and get a lot of balls back that others would have hit out, but they still have to play good, and can’t just rely on the skill to do the job. “Making less errors and shots becoming more precise” is too much.
(2) Diesel Returner: If returning serve is tweaked, then diesel returners should have a field day with average/weak servers. With skill, they should give good big servers trouble. The coaches that give diesel returner don’t seem to give points into forehand/backhand/power. They aren’t going to be winning baseline rallies frequently because of this. So their main strength comes from their ability to break their opponent’s serve. If reflex becomes the primary return stat, with strokes being secondary, diesel returners should also be able to stand out from good returners who aren’t diesel returners. Good returners will make less errors off the return, and their frequency of attacking serves (hitting clean winners or hitting a good return that is hard for the server to attack) would be average/medium depending on the server. Diesel returners would make even less errors off the return, and their frequency of attacking serves should be high.
Coaches that need to be toned down and/or reworked
(1) Pei Jing Quah – The amount of points she gives needs to be taken down from 50 to 35, and redistributed differently: +6 fh, +6 bh, +6 serve, +4 volley, +3 power, +7 stamina, + 3 reflex. Monster defense needs to be redefined, and the above definition of monster defense would work perfectly with these new tweaks. This way topspin invasion wouldn’t be overkill. They can be offensive with topspin invasion, and can make comebacks (through good play) with monster defense.
(2) Jon Samala – The amount of points he gives needs to be taken down from 45 to 35, and redistributed: +8 fh, +5 bh, +5 serve,+3 volley, +8 power, +6 stamina.
(3) Snezlana Savina – Points taken down from 50 to 35, and redistributed. +5 fh, +5 bh, +5 serve, +5 volley, +5 speed, + 10 reflex.
(4) Lydia Jara – Points taken down from 45 to 35, and redistributed. +13 serve, +4 volley, + 9 power, + 9 reflex.
(5) Drew Welch – Points taken down from 50 to 30. +5 fh, +5 bh, +10 serve, + 5 power, + 5 stamina.
(6) Remi Ercolani – Points taken down from 50 to 35. + 5 power, + 10 stamina, +15 speed, + 5 reflex.
There were some other skills that appear really good now, such as reach swings expert, but we’ll have to wait and see how good it really is after the patch. I can’t see the future, but these are the coaches that I thought could rise to power were Pei Jing Quah balanced. Their points distribution were really good, and if tweaks are made to areas of the game I thought they would easily dominate the top coaches list. Some of them are really good right now; the only reason why they aren’t shining is because of Pei Jing Quah. Coaches/skills that are under the radar now could rise up after changes, so this is definitely a work in progress. I used many combinations to try and determine how good those coaches were, the skills they give, and tried to “balance” them from there.
Skills that need tweaking.
(1) Monster defense: I think this skill should become "You make less errors on your opponent's first game point". Your shots should not become more precise or effective, just less errors. This would not make the 2nd skill (instant rocket, topspin invasion, or whatever) 10x better than they already are. It would activate every time your opponent receives game point for the “first” time and for that time only. I’ll explain what I mean by the “first” time.
-Case 1: If your opponent is serving, and goes up Ad point, monster defense would activate, and you’ll make less errors. You play well and take it back to deuce. At deuce, monster defense deactivates. You lose the point and your opponent goes Ad up again. He has gained game point for the second time. Monster defense would activate again, and you’ll make less errors for the next point. If you win the point again and go back to deuce, monster defense would not be active for the deuce point, and so on.
-Case 2: If your opponent is serving and is up 40-0, monster defense would activate only for the next point played since your opponent has game point. If you win that point and the score becomes 40-15, monster defense would not be active for the next point, or the one after that. You would have to take it up to deuce, and your opponent would have to go up Ad point, for monster defense to become active again (Case 1).
The reason why I didn't say "make less errors when your opponent has game point" is because this would punish the person who fought hard to get up in points, like the current monster defense does. This way someone who is trailing 6-1 during the tie break, or down 0-40 can't just sleep and rely on monster defense to bring them back. Your opponent works so hard to get up 40-0 or 6-1 during the tie break, and the person who is down shouldn’t get to make less errors for 3 or 5 straight points, no. This way, characters with monster defense can come back, but they can’t come back ALL THE TIME, AND ANYTIME. They’ll make less errors and get a lot of balls back that others would have hit out, but they still have to play good, and can’t just rely on the skill to do the job. “Making less errors and shots becoming more precise” is too much.
(2) Diesel Returner: If returning serve is tweaked, then diesel returners should have a field day with average/weak servers. With skill, they should give good big servers trouble. The coaches that give diesel returner don’t seem to give points into forehand/backhand/power. They aren’t going to be winning baseline rallies frequently because of this. So their main strength comes from their ability to break their opponent’s serve. If reflex becomes the primary return stat, with strokes being secondary, diesel returners should also be able to stand out from good returners who aren’t diesel returners. Good returners will make less errors off the return, and their frequency of attacking serves (hitting clean winners or hitting a good return that is hard for the server to attack) would be average/medium depending on the server. Diesel returners would make even less errors off the return, and their frequency of attacking serves should be high.
Coaches that need to be toned down and/or reworked
(1) Pei Jing Quah – The amount of points she gives needs to be taken down from 50 to 35, and redistributed differently: +6 fh, +6 bh, +6 serve, +4 volley, +3 power, +7 stamina, + 3 reflex. Monster defense needs to be redefined, and the above definition of monster defense would work perfectly with these new tweaks. This way topspin invasion wouldn’t be overkill. They can be offensive with topspin invasion, and can make comebacks (through good play) with monster defense.
(2) Jon Samala – The amount of points he gives needs to be taken down from 45 to 35, and redistributed: +8 fh, +5 bh, +5 serve,+3 volley, +8 power, +6 stamina.
(3) Snezlana Savina – Points taken down from 50 to 35, and redistributed. +5 fh, +5 bh, +5 serve, +5 volley, +5 speed, + 10 reflex.
(4) Lydia Jara – Points taken down from 45 to 35, and redistributed. +13 serve, +4 volley, + 9 power, + 9 reflex.
(5) Drew Welch – Points taken down from 50 to 30. +5 fh, +5 bh, +10 serve, + 5 power, + 5 stamina.
(6) Remi Ercolani – Points taken down from 50 to 35. + 5 power, + 10 stamina, +15 speed, + 5 reflex.
Last edited by Hawkeye Miihawk on Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:18, edited 1 time in total.
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by Gahan1990 » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:07
I'd say take 8 from Back and Forehand away and put in 1 point in serve that would be fine
Or take the points there completly away and fill in some of these points somewhere else like +7 at speed or reflexes
I think the best way to balance a strong coach is to give less points in the stats like 35 overall
Or take the points there completly away and fill in some of these points somewhere else like +7 at speed or reflexes
I think the best way to balance a strong coach is to give less points in the stats like 35 overall
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by Hawkeye Miihawk » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:20
Gahan1990 wrote:I'd say take 8 from Back and Forehand away and put in 1 point in serve that would be fine
Or take the points there completly away and fill in some of these points somewhere else like +7 at speed or reflexes
I think the best way to balance a strong coach is to give less points in the stats like 35 overall
I edited her a bit, and put 4 points into volley, 2/2 taken from fh/bh.
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by JJ_DUBZ_87 » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:22
agreed, and I think it's strange that there are less stats for different coaches. Depending on the skills maybe, but that's still odd to me... Regardless, if one coach is too strong, even if they have 35 points distributed, changes need to be made.
Keep it coming guys, the big guys are reading
Keep it coming guys, the big guys are reading
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by Crotatsuya » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:41
I don't agree with Drew Welch, since if you use him you have next to no power stat, therefore the high fh bh stats are necessary for it to be effective.
Remember that this is a game, and even if a liitle more balance is always welcome (in the case of Pei jing Quah) I have not found another coach that is unbalanced yet. Either you get fh/ bh over power oder power over fh/bh and speed.
The developer will not tweak the entire game, that's for sure.
You even have to take into account that they purposely made this game more accessible and easier to play than Top Spin 3, because the higher error rates and risk factor obviously turned some people off. The majority of gamers wouldn't want your suggested tweaks because it would make the game less fun to play for non sim players.
Therefore we should focus on things that have a realistic chance of being balanced. We all agree that Pei Jing Quah is too strong, so this should be the primary focus for the developers. I tried a lot of different setups, but couldn't find one that was completely unbalanced or way stronger than the others.
What migt be an issue are 0/20/0 players with a laggy connection that are speedy enough to run to every ball due to the lag. But that's a different story and has nothing to do with the game as it is.
Remember that this is a game, and even if a liitle more balance is always welcome (in the case of Pei jing Quah) I have not found another coach that is unbalanced yet. Either you get fh/ bh over power oder power over fh/bh and speed.
The developer will not tweak the entire game, that's for sure.
You even have to take into account that they purposely made this game more accessible and easier to play than Top Spin 3, because the higher error rates and risk factor obviously turned some people off. The majority of gamers wouldn't want your suggested tweaks because it would make the game less fun to play for non sim players.
Therefore we should focus on things that have a realistic chance of being balanced. We all agree that Pei Jing Quah is too strong, so this should be the primary focus for the developers. I tried a lot of different setups, but couldn't find one that was completely unbalanced or way stronger than the others.
What migt be an issue are 0/20/0 players with a laggy connection that are speedy enough to run to every ball due to the lag. But that's a different story and has nothing to do with the game as it is.
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by djarvik » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:12
You trying and not finding an unbalanced setup does not conclude that there isn't one
There is always a strong setup. You can only hope by adjusting one setup you won't destroy the overall balance.
Right now, the TSI/MD is what most use, making them blind to the next setups in line. Once tweaked - it will be found within a day. Trust me, we have been thru this. Same goes for rules, ALL rules can and will be pushed and abused. Complaints never stop.
Developers dont need to concentrate on one setup Sorry, but whats there to concentrate on?
Anyhow. If you don't think any other coaches need adjustment, that is fine.
There is always a strong setup. You can only hope by adjusting one setup you won't destroy the overall balance.
Right now, the TSI/MD is what most use, making them blind to the next setups in line. Once tweaked - it will be found within a day. Trust me, we have been thru this. Same goes for rules, ALL rules can and will be pushed and abused. Complaints never stop.
Developers dont need to concentrate on one setup
Sorry, but whats there to concentrate on?
Anyhow. If you don't think any other coaches need adjustment, that is fine.
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by djarvik » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:23
On that note, let me throw in a few coaches that I think are missing.
Instant Rocket + Smell of Blood
This is the counter for TSI/MD. Should have medium power and strokes (70s) and a good reflex rating. High stamina.
Diesel Returner + Shot counter
This will be a true counter puncher setup. High speed and stamina. Medium to high strokes. Low power.
Instant Rocket + Smell of Blood
This is the counter for TSI/MD. Should have medium power and strokes (70s) and a good reflex rating. High stamina.
Diesel Returner + Shot counter
This will be a true counter puncher setup. High speed and stamina. Medium to high strokes. Low power.
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by Crotatsuya » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:36
You are right, there are several strong setups, but none of those are even close to being as overpowered as pei Jing Quah. If you weaken her stats she is still a strong coach, but not overpowered. I have played this game a lot and tried most of the useful setups the coach calculator spat out. People use the word overpowered too fast these days.
Again, this is a game, and like in most games there will always be some standout setups people can choose from. If you have that many options to chose from, a perfect balance will not be possible.
Weaken Quah and you are getting colose. I'm sure everything will be fine for most people then.
And for the sim people there is always the option for a sim tour with silver coaches...
Again, this is a game, and like in most games there will always be some standout setups people can choose from. If you have that many options to chose from, a perfect balance will not be possible.
Weaken Quah and you are getting colose. I'm sure everything will be fine for most people then.
And for the sim people there is always the option for a sim tour with silver coaches...
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by Hawkeye Miihawk » Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:48
Crotatsuya wrote:You are right, there are several strong setups, but none of those are even close to being as overpowered as pei Jing Quah. If you weaken her stats she is still a strong coach, but not overpowered. I have played this game a lot and tried most of the useful setups the coach calculator spat out. People use the word overpowered too fast these days.
Again, this is a game, and like in most games there will always be some standout setups people can choose from. If you have that many options to chose from, a perfect balance will not be possible.
Weaken Quah and you are getting colose. I'm sure everything will be fine for most people then.
And for the sim people there is always the option for a sim tour with silver coaches...
There are other strong coaches. The problem is that Pei Jing Quah is the strongest, by a long shot. Especially when monster defense gets activated. If she's balanced, then the other coaches will rise up, and people will complain again. Those coaches I put up there will definitely be the most sought after, I'm almost certain of it, if Pei Jing Quah is balanced and they are left untouched.
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