Possible solution to the Big serve/power combo

Your forum to discuss the fourth generation of Top Spin.

Moderator: Senior Hosts

Postby Hawkeye Miihawk » Tue, 05 Apr 2011 23:28

venom400 wrote:Serve is not the problem , it is power , I think just limiting the power and banning certain couches (berserk serve , etc..) would still give everyone plenty to play around with .

also max out the amount on the strokes so it makes people creative , so either you select a player with huge forehand or backhand and a week oposite or a all around stroker but just decent , the only player that kicked my arse big time on line was a guy that had 90 FH 90 BH , 90 power and 70 speed and grey everythign else I don't know how he did this but he would just serve out wide every time and I don't care how well I placed the return he would hit and a winner in one or two strokes at most .


Limiting the power to what degree though? Would how much power someone has also affect how good their strokes can be?

The problem is the game gives people the ability to have a good wing, and huge power. It's hard enough to deal with someone who has a 90fh/bh, but when coupled with 75+ power that stroke practically becomes a "winner on demand" stroke. If there were errors and the more power you used the higher your chance of error, then that wouldn't be a problem, but unfortunately there isn't. So they can just blast away as long as their timing is good/perfect.

I don't mind people having great strokes, 80/90+, but then they shouldn't have 70+ power.

emate007 wrote:I haven't played that much, but from my limited experience I think the best solution is to just make ALL gold coaches illegal in ITST matches.


I thought about that too, which means that silver coaches would be used. The problem is that you can still create monsters even with silver coaches. All this does is just create a lite version of the current gold coach monsters. You can use the coach calculator to see what I mean. Even with silver coaches, there will still have to be more rules.



My personal thoughts:

I don't like silver coaches because they don't add as much variety as gold coaches do. Since they only give 1 skill, so many of them that give "useless" skills will become obsolete, and then a lot of players will only pick the ones that give (for example) topspin invasion, slice invasion, diesel hard hitter, etc. Making many people similar. Some times you might need both skills from a gold coach, sometimes you might not. This way, every coach has a use, and players are more free to branch out, rather than just pick the silver coaches that gives topspin invasion or monster defense or slice invasion for instance, because everyone has figured out that those skills are very important now that they are dealing with silver coaches. Also, there is the problem of silver coaches not giving enough, in both points and skills, to warrant a wide variety of styles. Some playstyles might not be as good because the gold coaches that appear for that style give players just enough points and skills to make that style of play effective, whereas the silver coaches do not. If that makes sense.

You could say the same for gold coaches, yes, but then most of the pros, cept a few who are too low in points and probably nadal, are pretty balanced even though they have more points than customs and 3 skills. It's because there is a correletion between their strokes and how much power they have. This is something that will still need to be addressed even with silver coaches. Problems will still arise even though silver coaches give less points and 1 skill.

You can apply the same rules in this thread to silver coaches, but you can also apply them to gold coaches. Except gold coaches are more diverse than silver, giving people more room to explore. This is what I believe at least.

I'm in no way saying my way is absolute and the only way to solve things, so I hope I didn't sound all pompous and arrogant in my post as I didn't mean to. I'm just stating what I personally think.
Hawkeye Miihawk
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:12

Postby ANILTJE » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:02

Although the silver coaches might seem a bit boring. It is nice that a player gets a certain skill.
I mean you do feel a difference in skill when you play certain type of players.
Image



GAMERTAG : anil ITST
ANILTJE
ITST Former Host
 
Posts: 4210
Joined: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:41
Location: Amsterdamned

Postby Elias » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:13

And does the topspin inv./monster inv. skill combo even exists among the pro's ? Just wondering if you'll not end finding some better balance (and fun, still important thing) using only pro's as 2k probably tried to balance them as much as possible already. Sure there is no perfect balance, we can see this also in DMT with some characters considered cheesy (chang for instance), but this never prevented top players to win with other chars, just a tought issued from all my readings around here, although i don't play the game, therefore it's theorically speaking :wink:
Last edited by Elias on Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:28, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Elias
ITST Manager
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:58
Location: Paris - France

Postby ANILTJE » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:18

Nadal has it in the game I think??? Or Borg...
Image



GAMERTAG : anil ITST
ANILTJE
ITST Former Host
 
Posts: 4210
Joined: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:41
Location: Amsterdamned

Postby Elias » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:21

ANILTJE wrote:Nadal has it in the game I think??? Or Borg...


hmm, no , just checked, none of them has this combo :

http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/v ... hp?t=14002
User avatar
Elias
ITST Manager
 
Posts: 1204
Joined: Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:58
Location: Paris - France

Postby Hawkeye Miihawk » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 02:17

ANILTJE wrote:Although the silver coaches might seem a bit boring. It is nice that a player gets a certain skill.
I mean you do feel a difference in skill when you play certain type of players.


It's not about boredom. It's that you'll still run into the same problems with silver coaches that you'll encounter with gold. Atleast the gold coaches "make things interesting", in terms of diversity so to speak, so why not just use them to try and balance the game instead, if in the end the same problems will still arise regardless of whether the coach is silver or gold.
Balance breeds excitement. If the silver coaches were more balanced, then i wouldn't care how much diversity the gold coaches brought. I would like the rule of banning all gold, but like I said you still run into the same monster setups with silver coaches, only this time they are just a lite version.
That's what I was trying to say.
Hawkeye Miihawk
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:12

Postby venom400 » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:15

Last night i lost 2 masters and slam to maxed out base liners with big serves , they all had 40 points in volley and somehow full stamina , big forehand backhand and serve , some of them even had big numbers in speed , of course at the costvof no reflex and stamina , having a balanced player only helps them have fun , i had a few nice matches againt balanced characters but the big hiters are no fun even if you beat them , and of course i met tge maxed out player that serve wide slice every single time and wven if i hit it back deep i was in trouble with all that power , real tennis is not like this ! It is not possible to hit big serves every single time , most pros vary their serves in spins .

And apparently stamina does not have a noticable effect that i can tell , maybe i wa just tired , ill try again today
"It's nice to be important , but it's more important to be nice" Roger Federer .

"All who gain power are afraid to lose it , even the Jedi" Emperador Palpatine .
Venom400 the Classic Tennis player.
venom400
 
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:27

Postby xMFHxMataiiBANNED » Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:39

I'll state first that I haven't read much of any of the posts except abit of the first and the occasional browse over this and that -

..My view on this issue (very powerful opponents etc) is that yes it adds a different challenge but a very beatable one! I've been able to beat them in one way or another by playing my strengths vs their weaknesses as they always have glaring ones.. even if it means taking them to a tie-break or making them play as long a set of rallies as possible and then beating them later with stamina.. So far I have always found a way, and as of yet.. haven't lost to them.
xMFHxMataiiBANNED
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 16:35

Postby ANILTJE » Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:00

No coaches will take away the diffence in setups and skills.
Gold coaches are a bit overkill. Silver will be perfect :-)
Image



GAMERTAG : anil ITST
ANILTJE
ITST Former Host
 
Posts: 4210
Joined: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:41
Location: Amsterdamned

Postby venom400 » Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:10

I beat a power player and then got beaten by a 90 fh 90 power one with 40 speed 40 volley 40 reflex , yes you can beat them with stamina , but it is boring .

The best way to beat these guys is to move them around the court a lot and force them to sit on R1 , since these guys are not going to be hitting a lot of control shots they will always try to go for the winner , not easy when the slice is low and they get to the ball late .

Also attacking the net seems to be a good strategy , granted you come in on a short ball and keep them away from the ball lol, but fi you give them anything easy its over.
"It's nice to be important , but it's more important to be nice" Roger Federer .

"All who gain power are afraid to lose it , even the Jedi" Emperador Palpatine .
Venom400 the Classic Tennis player.
venom400
 
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 03:27

Postby Hawkeye Miihawk » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 00:50

ANILTJE wrote:No coaches will take away the diffence in setups and skills.
Gold coaches are a bit overkill. Silver will be perfect :-)


It's not the coaches that create the monsters necessarily, it's the amount of freedom given to the players. Even if you were to say, "Only bronze coaches", you would still need to have more rules because you can still make monsters even with bronze coaches. Why is that even though bronze coaches give no skills and even less points than silver coaches? It's the amount of freedom given to players to make any character they want without any limitations.

1.Would you like 69pw with 80+ strokes and a weak serve?
2.Would you like 75pw with 80+ strokes and a decent serve?
3.How about 85pw 75bh 85fh and a huge serve? or better yet 90fh 90pw 90srv? (95% or world tour)

There is no incentive to have less power, high strokes, and a weak serve when you can have more power, high strokes, and a good/huge serve. Not only are their strokes as good as yours, but they have more power too, plus a huge serve on the side to give them free points. No one in their right mind who will do anything to win will choose option 1 or 2. This is not something that is coach specific, this is something that the system allows. That's why changing coaches, be it silver or even bronze, still doesn't create a sim like experience.

You have to put limitations on the kind of characters people can create. Power and serve usually come hand in hand in TS4, but that isn't the problem necessarily. It's that power and serve can come with huge strokes. Where as you are trying to angle them off and move them around the court with 65 power and good strokes, they are trying to angle you off and move you around the court with 85 power, good strokes, AND they have a huge serve as well. People can create powerful servers with low strokes, but why do so when you can create powerful servers with high strokes and end points so quickly?
There is no incentive to create less powerful characters (serve and power wise) who take time to get going, when you can create monsters who end things so quickly.

That is something changing coaches doesn't address, and what these rules, in theory, aim to fix.

With these rules players can have high power and a good serve, but now they can't angle you off at high speeds as easily anymore or hit winners on demand because their placement/efficiency of their strokes won't be as good. They can still end points quickly with the 1-2 punch (serving is soo ridiculously good in TS4), but if their 1-2 game is lacking they can't crutch it out with huge strokes anymore like they can in the current system.

Now there is an incentive for those who want low (69 or less), medium (70-79) or high (80+pw) power.
I've played so many people whos characters fit these rules (djarvik, puttu puttuu, baghdad, rocketsfall, etc), and, imo, it actually makes TS4 enjoyable. We have rallies, lol , and actual point construction. Someone isn't being pulled outwide at highspeeds, or are blistering winners/strokes being hit all the time.

venom400 wrote:I beat a power player and then got beaten by a 90 fh 90 power one with 40 speed 40 volley 40 reflex , yes you can beat them with stamina , but it is boring .

The best way to beat these guys is to move them around the court a lot and force them to sit on R1 , since these guys are not going to be hitting a lot of control shots they will always try to go for the winner , not easy when the slice is low and they get to the ball late .

Also attacking the net seems to be a good strategy , granted you come in on a short ball and keep them away from the ball lol, but fi you give them anything easy its over.


I beat them too. That doesn't mean it's fair. It's the same with TS3. You might have had like a 10% chance of beating the 90*4 players that roamed WT, and a 0.0001% chance of beating a top itst player using a 90*4 character, assuming your character was realistic, but does that make it fair. Yes you still had a chance of winning :roll:, but that is not the point. It's the clear advantage people using the 90*3, topspin invasion + monster defense characters have over those who want to create sim like characters.
You winning simply means that you outplayed them, and not that your sim character and his monster both had a 50/50 chance of winning. Ofcourse even with sim rules, there will probably still be stronger setups. As long as 1 setup isn't so dominant, and there are a couple dominant ones (atleast 5 or 6), then that will be good enough.
Hawkeye Miihawk
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:12

Postby ANILTJE » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:25

I see where you are coming from.

We need to try things out a bit.

I honestly think they didn't do a good job with the skills in TS4 with the gold coaches. And on some a too good job. So monster defense with anything else is great. Or reachswing expert with anything else too.
But just one of them might be ok.
The fact there can be " good " or effective setups is not so much the problem it's for me more the skills.
So maybe a player with just top spin invasion is pretty ok. If you know what I mean.
We need to try.
If the problem stays the way it is we might need to do the same as in TS3 and come up with a sim roster. But it's all wayyyy too early for that.
Image



GAMERTAG : anil ITST
ANILTJE
ITST Former Host
 
Posts: 4210
Joined: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 03:41
Location: Amsterdamned

Postby djarvik » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:17

I am with Anil on this one.
Level 13 Edberg and counting...
User avatar
djarvik
ITST General Manager
 
Posts: 13330
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:57

Postby Hawkeye Miihawk » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:38

ANILTJE wrote:I see where you are coming from.

We need to try things out a bit.


djarvik wrote:I am with Anil on this one.


So does that mean that you'll like to try out these rules :)? Or were you just agreeing with anil djarvik :oops:?
All my characters fit the bill so I'm up for matches anytime.

ANILTJE wrote:I honestly think they didn't do a good job with the skills in TS4 with the gold coaches. And on some a too good job. So monster defense with anything else is great. Or reachswing expert with anything else too.
But just one of them might be ok.
The fact there can be " good " or effective setups is not so much the problem it's for me more the skills.
So maybe a player with just top spin invasion is pretty ok. If you know what I mean.
We need to try.
If the problem stays the way it is we might need to do the same as in TS3 and come up with a sim roster. But it's all wayyyy too early for that.


Correct. Monster defense, imo, is the best solo skill in the game. I'll give 2k the benefit of the doubt since it was their first time, but if coaches are in TS5 then they need to do a better job at balancing. Use ITST players, or good players in general, for testing. Some coaches give too much, while others don't give enough. Some skills are at the top of the food chain right now cause they're too good.

There's another coach, Jon Samala, who gives Monster Defense and Instant Rocket. He might some testing.
We need to come up with sim rules first, then from there it will be easier to see which coaches are overkill, and which ones are bearable.
If all else fails, then the character sim roster will have to be the way to go.
Hawkeye Miihawk
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:12

Postby djarvik » Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:45

I meant that I agree with Anil about the testing things out and if no solution found we will design the roster ourselves.

But I don't want to test anything before patch is out. We might just waste time if we do it before.
Level 13 Edberg and counting...
User avatar
djarvik
ITST General Manager
 
Posts: 13330
Joined: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:57

PreviousNext

Return to Top Spin 4 General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron