Possible solution to the Big serve/power combo

[fedfan]

Dont you have to have a coach?

[ItaStallion]

yes your forced to have a coach after level 2

but i dont see a bronze coach helping you out to much

[GOA MASTER MDMA]

uuuuups yes , this is true, you can´t play without coach .

so you need minimum a bronze coach

[ANILTJE]

Right no coaches could work. But then the special skills go away...Which might taek away something. Not sure.

[Tidus1]

i really dont think there is any need to apply any limitations. my character is mainly a defensive baseliner with balanced stats (ie not too much on one attribute). Every time i come up against the big hitters i just change the way i play such as using more variety and try to get them moving. yes hitting the ball hard is a huge advantage but it is the same in real life and have to find way to beat it.

PLayed 2 warm up tourny games yday really enjoying TS4 so far

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

if you could recreate me a roddick in custom players please try.....

its impossible his speed and reflex stat are very good for a guy with such high power and serve and you are unable to do this is in a custom character or else i would have already.

I Blame 2k for this problem im very disappionted in the characters level up system so to say.

i want high reflex,speed,power and serve but am unable to do this with the current system.

so it seems to me its the level up system that technically needs to be changed or else we can't make the exact custom character we want.

Sure, I'll create Roddick with these rules. I used the Gold Coach simulator BTW.
You can create him with
S&V: 8
OFF: 12

You need to put 12 into offensive baseline first, then the remaining 8 into S&V, or else you won't get the third coach below. These are the 3 coaches that give a Roddick-esque like characters

Stephanie Schiemer
fh 70
bh 50
srv 98
vol 73
pow 78
sta 71
spe 49
rf 61

Low volley specialist, diesel server


Chedy Raissi
fh 70
bh 63
ser 92
vol 58
pow 81
sta 61
spe 49
ref 61

Brutal volley, diesel hard hitter


Dilan Cordero
fh 75
bh 50
srv 95
vol 63
pw 81
sta 61
spe 49
ref 61

Serve stick beserker, focus service

(The third coach gives a 75 fh, but like I said, things won't fit point for point so some exeptions will have to be made, as long as they are close)

You can have a high serve stat, with low power, and still hit powerful serves. My karlovic has 100 srv and 68pw. My flat serves are around 130-133 mph. Obviously the 3 character above will have faster serves, with just as good placement. Also, Roddick is a pro, who was specifically altered to have the stats he does, with the 3 skills he has as well. You can come close, but you won't create roddick point for point. Same for the other pros.

The rule doesn't state it, but it implies that you'll have to use S&V as the primary balancing stat, since it mainly adds to srv, volley, and reflex.

I agree with Rob. If there is going to be something it needs to be simple.

The most simple way is to have for example level 15 or only silver coaches.

I personally don't see the rules as being difficult. lol, obvioulsy I'm biased, but if people just use the top spin coach calculator it will make things a lot easier and much faster.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Also, for the third coach, the person could have easily taken away 5 points from the fh and put that into the bh, to make it 70fh 55bh. The point calculator puts all those 5pts, when asked which wing you want to make stronger, into fh.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I think it would be easier to just limit the OFB level. Something like 15 maybe. You could have high power/serve, or high power/strokes, but not high power/serve/strokes.

I still think it's too early to really speculate though, especially if a patch is indeed coming.

Thank you Rob.
I've been busy with the Coach Calculator, and I've been creating players within the rules. I found out that your idea of limiting OFB helps. A max of 14 OFB seems to yields the best number that gives players the most amount of freedom in choosing other coaches that fit within the rules.

Yeah, so a new rule addition is:

You can only have a max of 14 in the Offensive Baseline Stat.

Simply putting a cap at 14 for OFB alone doesn't solve the big serve/power/strokes combo though.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Another rule change:

A ban to the coach Pei Jing Quah. She gives topspin invasion, and monster defense.

I posted my reasoning in another thread, but here it is. I would like to hear what others think.

Something needs to be done about the coach that gives topspin invasion and monster defense. The problem with this coach is that she gives too much. She not only gives topspin invasion, which I have no problem with, but monster defense too .

I used those rules above and created this with that same coach.

fh 83
bh 73
srv 73
vol 49
pw 69
sta 79
spe 66
rf 58
Top spin invasion, monster defense.

The character fits within those rules, but there are still problems. This is the most broken coach I have ever seen in the game, and I'm thinking about adding a ban for that coach in that thread. Hopefully people agree.

Top spin invasion: The more you use topspin shots during a rally, the more efficient they beome.
Monster Defense: Play more precise shots and make less errors when you are trailing

The thing with monster defense is that it lessens errors and your shots are more precise when you are trailing. Top spin invasion already makes your shots more precise and is hard to deal with alone, but then monster defense improves it. Giving you the ability to make impossible shots and angles on demand. Another problem is that monster defense improves your shots when you are trailing, so that applies to your service games AND YOUR OPPONENTS SERVICE GAMES.
Wait, so you already have hard to deal with precise shots from topspin invasion, just like slice invasion. Then you have monster defense which reduces your errors and makes your shots more precise as well, adding even more precision to your already precise topspin invasion shots, when you are trailing. When you are trailing? As in trailing during your game only? No, when you are trailing in general. That, imo, is broken.

I created that character above a while back, and my oh my I now see why 98% of WT is using this setup. It's like the 90+ pw 90+fh 90+srv combo. It's so easy and effective to use. Even though he is within the rules, it felt like I was cheating. I'm already good enough when at neutral, and up in games, but then I get better when I'm trailing. Regardless of who is serving? Really? That's too good.
I personally would like to see a ban on this coach, Pei Jing Quah. Those two skills are too much of a crutch when used together.

[tigerofintegrity]

I do agree that the Topspin Invasion/Monster Defense setup is a little overpowered. They can hit incredible angles from anywhere on the court and often even off perfect power shots. It's the only player build I lose to really and it's probably an 80% chance to lose if I come across a good player using that.

The main problem I see with it is that it is starting to become the setup to be and looking at the top 10 players on the WT, 7 of them use this setup. And of those, 6 have the exact same build of 12OFB and 8DFB. I think it is already starting to be an issue that most people will end up using this if they want to make it to the top.

However, I'm not really sure there is a solution to it. I use a power baseliner and I usually have no trouble with anyone else so probably everyone is using this setup to counter that. It may be the only setup that can consistently beat a power baseliner. Apart from a sim thing restricting these issues, both with the power baseliner and the topspin/defense setup, I doubt 2K would bother to deal with it so we'll just have to learn to live with it. I think Topspin 4 will just degenerate into these two archetypes with the Topspin/Defense one dominating.

[Wrathchild tw]

Another rule change:

A ban to the coach Pei Jing Quah. She gives topspin invasion, and monster defense.

I posted my reasoning in another thread, but here it is. I would like to hear what others think.

I have to agree with this. I'm a decent player, not great but I can at least give a challenge to most players. Twice I've faced opponents using Pei Jing Quah and both times I was blown out. This combination is overwhelming in the severe angles that players can get even from a running shot with off timing.

Losing is tough to take under most conditions, but against those players I couldn't even enjoy the game and just wanted to not play again afterwards. I'm not surprised that most of the top ranked players are using this and do expect that to be an ongoing trend given it's result.

[Hollaa Itz Mike]

nothing needs to be changed

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I do agree that the Topspin Invasion/Monster Defense setup is a little overpowered. They can hit incredible angles from anywhere on the court and often even off perfect power shots. It's the only player build I lose to really and it's probably an 80% chance to lose if I come across a good player using that.

The main problem I see with it is that it is starting to become the setup to be and looking at the top 10 players on the WT, 7 of them use this setup. And of those, 6 have the exact same build of 12OFB and 8DFB. I think it is already starting to be an issue that most people will end up using this if they want to make it to the top.

However, I'm not really sure there is a solution to it. I use a power baseliner and I usually have no trouble with anyone else so probably everyone is using this setup to counter that. It may be the only setup that can consistently beat a power baseliner. Apart from a sim thing restricting these issues, both with the power baseliner and the topspin/defense setup, I doubt 2K would bother to deal with it so we'll just have to learn to live with it. I think Topspin 4 will just degenerate into these two archetypes with the Topspin/Defense one dominating.

The only solution is to ban her. You can already pull of unbelieveable shots with topspin invasion alone, but monster defense amps it up and it becomes overkill.
I didn't want a ban at first, so I created a character within the rules in this thread just to test it out, and I still thought it was bull$#!t.
I've looked at the top guys on xbl and, like you said, 12 out of the top 15 have the same 12 off 8 def topspin invasion/monster defense setup. That coach is too hot right now.

I have to agree with this. I'm a decent player, not great but I can at least give a challenge to most players. Twice I've faced opponents using Pei Jing Quah and both times I was blown out. This combination is overwhelming in the severe angles that players can get even from a running shot with off timing.

Losing is tough to take under most conditions, but against those players I couldn't even enjoy the game and just wanted to not play again afterwards. I'm not surprised that most of the top ranked players are using this and do expect that to be an ongoing trend given it's result.

Lol, yeah they just camp on the baseline and pull out angles outta their @$$, as if the angles in TS4 weren't already extreme enough. Those 2 skills combined are too much.

[venom400]

Serve is not the problem , it is power , I think just limiting the power and banning certain couches (berserk serve , etc..) would still give everyone plenty to play around with .

also max out the amount on the strokes so it makes people creative , so either you select a player with huge forehand or backhand and a week oposite or a all around stroker but just decent , the only player that kicked my arse big time on line was a guy that had 90 FH 90 BH , 90 power and 70 speed and grey everythign else I don't know how he did this but he would just serve out wide every time and I don't care how well I placed the return he would hit and a winner in one or two strokes at most .

[emate007]

I haven't played that much, but from my limited experience I think the best solution is to just make ALL gold coaches illegal in ITST matches.