anyone for a glass of milk?

[SlicerITST]

Too much of anything is bad for you really. I feel that if you balance things you will have a healthy enough lifestyle. Healthy enough to reach the average life expectancy of your country. Really, if you substitute all animal products how do you now know that the other things you eat as replacement will not be equally bad for you? (im thinking of: to much sugar, to much pesticides, etc)

Now i hate to single out one part of the video as his research covers a lot more. But as he keeps coming up with it and you say you have studied his material closely i have a question for you.

The part i am wondering about is the graph showing the number of women with breast cancer and the amount of protein they are digesting. The graph looks compelling. Now substitute that protein intake with access to medical diagnosis or even women's rights for that matter.

Netherlands seem to be high in the number of breast cancer related cases. I dont think thats so strange. All women in a certain category undergo annual check ups for breast cancer. These scans are done by driving the neccessary equipment around. I wonder how many women in lets say Thailand have opportunities like this. Do you know if this particular study keeps this in mind?

[beltic caldy]

It's definitely a 'wrench' to make such a change in your lifestyle - it certainly took some serious events in my life for it to happen - and i did used to be the guy at the dinner table quizzing and 'poking gentle fun' at the veggies at the table.

then my father died, a few years ago now - of bowel cancer, aged 62 - and then my wife got reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal sick - nearly 5 months on the critical list in hospital with severe acute (necrotizing) pancreatitis.

If it weren't for those events and the influence of my wife, there's little doubt that i'd be still eating the say way i was before.

since going vegetarian, and then vegan, i've never felt better in my whole life - likewise my wife : ) we walk about 30 miles/week - not that crazy arm-waving-power-walking, just nicely-paced brisk walks - we're very very very lucky in Leeds to have loads of parks and nice walking areas. Gracie, my wife continues to stun her medical team (ex-medical team now) with her recovery and 'wellness' - this is wholly down to our diet and exercise : )

the ultra cool thing is that while i struggled quite a bit at the start - i flat out failed at vegetarianism the first time i tried - it hasn't just gotten easier, it's a breeze now and actually getting much much easier all the time - as our recipe-list grows, and we become more familiar and practiced.

i don't know - i've believed for a long time now that people/things don't change easily - maybe mostly people don't change that much at all - it takes some crisis, some apotheosis for it to happen - that was the case with us, certainly - but Gracie talks now about, in a sense, being glad she got sick - the lives we live now? we might as well be 2 completely different people : )

ps - re time? most of the meals we prepare, with a handful of exceptions, take no more than 10/15 minutes - i know there are dishes to be washed and stuff, and sure, it's less convenient that eating out (well, for us it kinda isn't really...cos of the cost/shortage of vegan eateries), but to feel energised and awake and light and happy? And as regards 'learning to cook' - honestly, just pick 1 or 2 very simple recipes - you'll soon see that there's a whole lot less to cooking that you probably think - seriously!!!!

[beltic caldy]

Too much of anything is bad for you really. I feel that if you balance things you will have a healthy enough lifestyle. Healthy enough to reach the average life expectancy of your country. Really, if you substitute all animal products how do you now know that the other things you eat as replacement will not be equally bad for you? (im thinking of: to much sugar, to much pesticides, etc)

Now i hate to single out one part of the video as his research covers a lot more. But as he keeps coming up with it and you say you have studied his material closely i have a question for you.

The part i am wondering about is the graph showing the number of women with breast cancer and the amount of protein they are digesting. The graph looks compelling. Now substitute that protein intake with access to medical diagnosis or even women's rights for that matter.

Netherlands seem to be high in the number of breast cancer related cases. I dont think thats so strange. All women in a certain category undergo annual check ups for breast cancer. These scans are done by driving the neccessary equipment around. I wonder how many women in lets say Thailand have opportunities like this. Do you know if this particular study keeps this in mind?

Hi Slicer and thanks for your reply man : )

This thought process is interesting to me - 'too much of anything is bad for you' - not green, well sourced (non-GM, non-pesticide-ridden) vegetables!!!! You really can't have too much of these - I don't think that's really your point tho - and I wholly take on board the 'too much' angle from perspective of sugars and perhaps 'complex' foods (complex carbohydrates, trans fats etc). It is entirely possible to be vegan and have a very unhealthy diet by the way!

You make a very very good point in terms of the breast-cancer graph, and one the goodly professor would have elaborated on given time - i think the question you're asking is, does the data take into account socio-economic influences, across different cultures/'wealth groups'/genders? Have i got that right?

The answer, both broadly and specifically is yes - the study-groups span poor, medium and 'upper' wealth classes, both genders, and a wide variety of cultures (inc those with what we would likely class as those with kinda backward women's rights) - if the 45 min clip has given you pause for thought, or raised questions, check out his book (i'm not an agent or book seller!!!!) - the data is fully disclosed.

You mention screening/health checks too and while these are vital for picking up on the existence of a disease early, the point to take away from this research is really this - yes, genes and genetics have a big influence - but the influence of diet is far far more significant - I'll 'steal' one of his little 'soundbites' here - the data/research very clearly suggests that 'genetics may load the gun, but diet pulls the trigger' - and to me, continuing on a 'dangerous' diet, even with good screening programmes in place whichever country you live in....well.....thats kinda like saying it's ok to put your hand in a fire, as long as you have bandages and ice nearby? Why put your hand in the fire in the first place is what I'm getting at.

Breast cancer is such a terrible terrible disease and is on the increase in the UK (it's the number 1 killer of women in the UK now) and the US - it makes me angry/sad/appalled that you have thousands of women dying, undergoing drastic double mastectomies (breast removal - one or both) often in women in their 20's (in the case of 'high-risk' people - where perhaps the mother has had the disease), when an albeit drastic change in diet would simply prevent the cancer 'trigger' from ever being pulled. Can you even imagine - i know i can't - but even if there was an analagous scenario (there isn't, thank the stars) where say, there was a 'penis' cancer - and to prevent yourself dying from this, because maybe your father did - you have the 'old fella' chopped off - now instead of that pleasant little surgery and the wonderful after-effects (shudder shudder shudder), you could change your diet and guarantee removal from that harm....well, it'd be a no brainer for a man, right? which would you rather - a meat/dairy diet (minus your old chap), or a meat/dairy free diet with a happy 'old chap', firmly attached to the rest of you?

I know the research is provocative but that's what it suggests - and as a dyed-in-the-wool cynical skeptical scientist, having tried to rip it to pieces over several years, I am compelled to agree with his findings. He will stress time and time again that the study (really a collection of studies) is critically cautious to avoid 'single influence' - he examines collections of people across the whole age-range and whole socio-economic spectrum and a broad range of international cultures.

It is a matter of personal sadness for me that had i known about this stuff earlier, and been able to convince my father likewise (which is hugely unlikely) that not only would he still be alive, but would have probably another 20 healthy years of life - i firmly believe that to be true - utterly unprovable in the scientific sense, but i don't doubt it for a second.

[jayl0ve]

As jaylove said, and I feel the same way- I just can't see myself giving up on eating meat products. Have tried to in the past but have always tended to miss it when it's not on the plate.
The vid posted by the OP shows compelling evidence and I guess the "right" way to follow, but I just can't do it.
This kinda reminds me of that speech in 'Scent of a Woman',

"In my life I always knew what the right path was. Without exception, I knew. But I never took it. You know why? It was too damn hard".

Yeah that last quote is pretty much what it comes down to for me, I mean if it's so hard to eat a certain way, then maybe that way of eating is 'wrong' for you...I actually went 2 or 3 years (can't remember) where the only meat I ate (EVER...i never 'cheated) was fish and chicken, but I honestly just got bored of it, as well as the fact that I started getting really into cooking (still am) and you kind of run out of options after a while when the only animal protein you're working with is fish. It's just boring. I'm glad I did that for a while because now I love seafood and I totally hated it before, but I'm glad it's over. I have noticed that my normal weight has gone up and stayed 10 pounds heavier...my normal weight with no red meat was 145 lbs and now I weigh a pretty constant 155 lbs.

aaannnyways, side note, I've heard/read that South Africa is an extremely meat-centric place as far as the cuisine goes, that true???

[Mike Rotchtickles]

aaannnyways, side note, I've heard/read that South Africa is an extremely meat-centric place as far as the cuisine goes, that true???

Yeah, you could say that.
Let me put it this way:

If every South African goes meat free one day a week, 11 200 cattle, 2 million chickens, 10 000 pigs and 22 300 sheep will be saved from slaughter weekly.

[Chederer]

food inc. is definitely way better than fed up....

[beltic caldy]

aaannnyways, side note, I've heard/read that South Africa is an extremely meat-centric place as far as the cuisine goes, that true???

Yeah, you could say that.
Let me put it this way:

If every South African goes meat free one day a week, 11 200 cattle, 2 million chickens, 10 000 pigs and 22 300 sheep will be saved from slaughter weekly.

those are some numbers man....and of course, the knock-on would be less cattle/chickens 'grown' for consumption - imagine the reduction in greenhouse gases and all the other huge *costs* associated with this growing...from start to finish.

i heard a statistic/'factoid' recently - provenance/source unknown, so not quoting as fact, that suggested/stated that the greenhouse 'footprint' of a cow-for-slaughter is greater than that of an average family car over the span of both lifespans? i found that shocking, but believable....

[Q. Reese]

I recently start buying Soy milk. They have a tracking system where you can find the actual soy used to make the milk. Of course, I don't know if it is actually true. It's a good incentive though.

I have vanilla bean and chocolate flavored Soy milk in the frig right now.

[beltic caldy]

good to hear from ya Q and nice one! Animal protein, be it from milk or meat....well, have a look at the video at the start of this link : )

all best

[jayl0ve]

I drink soy milk and put it in my cereal too...like I said I'm not a vegetarian but milk grosses me out, and also soy milk just tastes really good to me.

[GOA MASTER MDMA]

I recently start buying Soy milk. They have a tracking system where you can find the actual soy used to make the milk. Of course, I don't know if it is actually true. It's a good incentive though.

I have vanilla bean and chocolate flavored Soy milk in the frig right now.

soy milk is very good for the brain !
its nice to hear you start drinking soy milk !!

[SlicerITST]

Sorry for my late reply beltic. I wanted to say you did capture the essence of my post. Although i have reservations about the points you bring in i cannot say much to counter it. Giving a rebuttal would mean i have to dive into his research and i just dont have the time for that.

I do want to mention the following and i have doubted a while to actually post it. You say:

not green, well sourced (non-GM, non-pesticide-ridden) vegetables!!!!

Thats probably true although i doubt the sustainability of these kind of vegetables. At the moment i think is not feasable to feed our society with this (if you include things like bad harvests). But to be honest, this is my idea and i cannot back it up with research.

Lets say it is possible and take it one step further. If we as society decide to make the "smart" move can we really grow enough food? What i am going to say next is dangerous ground. Certainly because i probably have less experience dealing with death as most on this forum. Its always different to say something about death when you havent really experienced it with any of your loved ones. I do not want to be the advocate of death but as a society we can not grow in numbers, extend our life expectancy and let our live stock expand and expect to maintain the same standards we have today.

I guess what i am trying to say is that we have a balance now. It took us decades to reach it. It may not be perfect, it may be unfair to a lot of animals(incl humans) but it is a balance... Of course it is easy to look at something and say, this is better for humanity while there are so many other variables not taken into account. Non-GM, non-pesticide-ridden vegetables for a greater number of people means more growing fields neccesary because of smaller harvests and the greater possibility of bad harvests. Is there room for that? Id say no. Perhaps we should "outsource" this to the land of another country?

Did i just link eating healthier to a greater risk of wars.... I think i did . Not sure if my reasoning makes any sense. Perhaps it is just a personal thing. I hate narrowing in on a subject and love looking at the bigger picture.

By the way, i think you make a lot of valid points but i wouldnt use the following factoid anymore without some additional data. Id like to see it compared to a cow not intended for slaughter. If thats greater then an average family car as well we should definately do something about all these cows running around. Perhaps we should install a carbon filter in these things.

Even if it is smaller. Does an average family car have a big greenhouse footprint? Compared to what? We are all made to believe that a car is very very bad. You cant do much worse then driving around basically. This is why this factoid will speak to many people.

i heard a statistic/'factoid' recently - provenance/source unknown, so not quoting as fact, that suggested/stated that the greenhouse 'footprint' of a cow-for-slaughter is greater than that of an average family car over the span of both lifespans? i found that shocking, but believable....

[beltic caldy]

Hey Jesse! Thank you for considered reply man - am a little tired right now...just back from a big hike - you raise some very interesting questions, and delighted to hear from ya!

Will reply properly later/tomorrow - food for thought : )

rich

ps - correction - this should say 'Hey Slicer!'- addressed below

[beltic caldy]

quick reply before lovely roast veggie dinner.....

check out this article from The Independant (2006) - quite a sort article - the second link is a report by the U.N. called 'Livestocks long shadow' - again, wii address the other interesting points you raise slightly later man : )

Article (quite short) from The Independant, a prominent newspaper in the UK - the article is from 2006:

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 27843.html


U.N. Report on global impact of livestock (NOT short - 400 pages)

http://www.afpf-asso.org/afpf/vie/vie/i ... onment.pdf

[beltic caldy]

One quick 'clip' from the article, which reference to material in the report :

"Ranching, the report adds, is "the major driver of deforestation" worldwide, and overgrazing is turning a fifth of all pastures and ranges into desert.Cows also soak up vast amounts of water: it takes a staggering 990 litres of water to produce one litre of milk."