Current restriction of "No more than 85 power"

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I know that the warm up tournies haven't been done yet and there is still testing to be done, but I can't help but feel that 85 max power is not enough. I haven't signed up for any tournies cause I'm gonna be busy due to IRL commitments in the coming weeks. So I decided to get ahead of it now and type this out now cause I don't know if I'd be able to when the testing/tournies begin. So bear with me for a second

PROBLEM

Right now there are several problems with the game:

1. Strokes are valued too highly. High strokes = better angles, better precision (closer to lines) and easier timing on strokes

2. High power makes it so that you can just power your way through most opponents without really having to setup the point.

3. Serve stat not working properly. So people with 30 serves can serve like Karlovic. We all know about the outwide serve +1, the current playstyle of world tour.

4. Stamina not influencing the game like it states. People still blasting with no errors while on the run reaching for the ball and 15 ft away from the court with 0 stamina.

5. Volleying requires you to have a character with high volley stats due to points 1 and 2. In order to counteract characters with 85+ strokes on both wings and 85+ power you're going to need a volley stat in the 85+ range. As such even toons with say 60 volley and Amazing first volley will struggle at the net. People hold down the button with no fear of missing and blast right past you at the net regardless of what position they're in. Like on the run and reaching for the ball with 0 stamina (like i stated in point 4)

The most important stats in the game right now, the one people stack the most are

Forehand, Backhand, Power, Speed, and Reflexes.

Almost everyone I run into on World Tour has 85+ Bh/Fh, 85+ power, minimum of 80 speed, minimum of 70 Reflexes, 60+ stamina, 30 srv, 30 vol. With either Mikolaj or Radek as coaches and fitting 2 (return serve counter). Everyone serves like Roddick, everyone runs like Rafa, and everyone rallies and returns like Novak. Srv/Vol are the useless stats, and we have so many points people just overload the important ones.

I like the current restriction of "85 max power", but, imo, people will just do this:

Fh 95 (80)
Bh 80 (95)
Srv 30
Vol 30
Pow 85
Spe 80
Sta 70
Ref 80

Radek or Mikolaj with Fitting 2 (Return service counter)

The only difference from this and world tour is rather than 98 power, people gained 13 extra points to put into something else. Still the same Roddick serve, Rafa speed, and groundstrokes and return of serves of Novak. While also
running the same 2 coaches.

I have 2 characters. One Serve and Volleyer, and a baseliner. The S&V toon is more for characters with serve centric playstyles (I tried a roddick type build on this once). While the baseliner is for baseline styles in general. I've never used Radek or Mikolaj as coaches.

I've tried crushing passing shot + wrong foot expert, Highly flammable + longer better, Approach shot expert + reach swings expert, etc on my baseliner. I've never played with more than 75 power, nor have I ever had a stroke higher than 80. One thing I've realized on why 99% of players don't use any other coach besides Radek/Mikolaj is because the other coaches have skill that Require a minimum of 50 Volley or 50 Service points. They also gives you attributes in Serve or Volley (the "useless stats). Radek/Mikolaj also give skills that work well with the useful stats and are always active, rather than situational skills that can be strong but not always active. They stack your Bh/Fh/Pow/Ref/Spe.

Why use coaches that give serve/vol points AND their skills also require a minimum of 50 serve or volley when I can just use Radek/Mikolaj who don't give "useless stats" and give me diesel hard hitter/shot counter instead? It's also the reason why you see only Fitting 2. There's one choice in all the choices of fitting 2 that don't give Serve or Volley attributes. FIttings 1 or 3 give you either serve, volley, or both. This is how people get their 30 serve and 30 volley with fitting 2 and Radek/Mikolaj.


SOLUTION

Imo, there needs to be maximum AND minimum stat restrictions. The question then becomes how high should people go and how low?

For how low, I simply look to the coaches. What would incentivize someone to use a different coach/fitting from radek/mikolaj + Fitting 2? Everyone should have to meet a minimum of 50 points in all stats like the non meta coaches require. This way someone can use Tereza Cerna and put 50pts into Volley to activate her Approach shot expert and not feel like they are pumping "useless stats" while also having to face 90 + wings and 85 power at the net with their 60 volley + amazing first volley (which will lose btw).

High High? I personally think after 90 points things start to get really silly. Now you could make the argument that Serve and Volley can and should be able to go higher. True, as someone who has played S&V extensively I can agree. You can't rally at all and the only time your player works is at the net. I would say a cap at 90 would be best.



- Minimum 50 points in all stats
- Maximum 90 points in all stats
- Maximum of 85 power

**EDIT(Added Later)**

- If you have more than 70 power you cannot have more than 160pts total in your Backhand and Forhand combined (90fh/70bh, 80fh/80bh)
- Everyone serves from the T to try and minimize the serve outwide
- Ban the coach Mikolaj





You go from:

Fh 95 (80)
Bh 80 (95)
Srv 30
Vol 30
Pow 85
Spe 80
Sta 70
Ref 80

Radek/Mikolaj + Fitting 2

to

Fh 85
Bh 70
Srv 50
Vol 70
Pow 75
Spe 70
Sta 60
Ref 70

Tereza Cerna (approach shot + reach swings expert) + fitting 1 (Amazing first volley)

or

Fh 85
Bh 85
Srv 50
Vol 50
Pow 65 (60)
Spe 85 (90)
Sta 70
Ref 60

Pradnyasari (monster defense) + fitting 3 (topspin invasion) Old ts4 classic


This is just my opinion, and I'm posting this now cause I might not have time to later. I know testing still hasn't been done yet, but I can't help but feel "Max of 85 power" is just gonna be "World tour builds but with less power".


***EDIT (Additional restrictions from others in thread)***

I think there are various ways to balance the game through ITST:
- Only 75 power
- No instant rocket
- Forehand and backhand together can have a maximum of 160 points

- If you have more than 70 power you cannot have more than 160pts total in your Backhand and Forhand combined (90fh/70bh, 80fh/80bh)
- Everyone serves from the T to try and minimize the serve outwide

[Cinemartic]

Very interesting perspective, we'll take that into account soon when discussions are made about future restrictions, thx a lot for the detailed feedback!

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Very interesting perspective, we'll take that into account soon when discussions are made about future restrictions, thx a lot for the detailed feedback!

Thank you Cinemartic.

As someone who's experimented with almost all the coaches everytime I saw that "50 minimum volley required" or "50 minimum serve required" it made sense why no one chooses them . It's also how I found out that fittings 1 and 3 give serve, volley or both cause I avoided fitting 2 on every build i tried lol. Hence why everyone uses fitting 2.

I really enjoy variety and I personally feel these restrictions will allow those that want to venture out of the meta to feel like they stand a chance and aren't wasting points.

[Hawk23]

In my opinion 85 power is way too much. The problem I see is that ITST players have skill, and this will result in extremely fast rallies and almost every player will have to have 85 power to keep up.

How about if the players you use here can be max. lvl 20 and max 75 in power. Or only distribute as many points into the stats that are available to you at level 20 (because you level up automatically)

I believe that there would then be much more realistic tennis and, above all, more variable playing styles.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

In my opinion 85 power is way too much. The problem I see is that ITST players have skill, and this will result in extremely fast rallies and almost every player will have to have 85 power to keep up.

How about if the players you use here can be max. lvl 20 and max 75 in power. Or only distribute as many points into the stats that are available to you at level 20 (because you level up automatically)

I believe that there would then be much more realistic tennis and, above all, more variable playing styles.

Characters running around with high power in WT is overkill, most of us agree.

Thing is you don't want to completely kill of offensive play. The best ITST can do is put a cap on how much power you can have. After that 2k needs to balance the stats so that power isn't that big of a deciding factor.

Characters with less power should be able to exist. RIght now less power = bad character, but all ITST can do is ban coaches and put caps on stats T(coaches ban and Stat caps were implemented for TS4 on ITST).

The rest is up to 2k. It if were up to the players, 30 serve, stamina not being as important as it should be, power through everything gameplay with high strokes, introducing more errors into the game, etc...all of this would have been fixed a month ago. All we can do is give our feedback and see what they do.

[Hawk23]

I understand about the offensive playing style. But isn’t 75 enough? I once tried playing here with a player who has 95 reaction and 93 speed in Roland Garros. The results were 0:6, 0:6, 1:6.

From my perspective, playing defensively is impossible because you simply cannot reach the instant rocket 85 power (plus 90s forehand and backhand) shots. It’s absolutely impossible to retrieve them.

This limits the ITST players’ playing style to the same type. And that’s really unfortunate.

Anyone who wants to hit balls can play the World Tour; here, it would be nice if there were differences (Chang, Edberg, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov).

Maybe I’m just doing something wrong. But I’ve tried everything: short, long, topspin, slice, etc.

If anyone else has a tip, feel free to send me a private message.

But I believe that in two tournaments, it’s nothing different from World Tour. What a shame.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I understand about the offensive playing style. But isn’t 75 enough? I once tried playing here with a player who has 95 reaction and 93 speed in Roland Garros. The results were 0:6, 0:6, 1:6.

From my perspective, playing defensively is impossible because you simply cannot reach the instant rocket 85 power (plus 90s forehand and backhand) shots. It’s absolutely impossible to retrieve them.

This limits the ITST players’ playing style to the same type. And that’s really unfortunate.

Anyone who wants to hit balls can play the World Tour; here, it would be nice if there were differences (Chang, Edberg, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov).

Maybe I’m just doing something wrong. But I’ve tried everything: short, long, topspin, slice, etc.

If anyone else has a tip, feel free to send me a private message.

But I believe that in two tournaments, it’s nothing different from World Tour. What a shame.

I agree with you.

I've made so many, imo, fun baseline builds that I know don't work cause they all sit around 65-75 power, usually have one strong wing and one weak wing, don't have 30/30 srv/vol, aren't using Radek/Mikolaj, and aren't using fitting 2.

When you take a look at the pro players, you see "realistic" stats. Not everyone is running around with high strokes on both wings, many of them sit around 65-75ish power, not everyone has 80+ speed, etc. I personally think the game is more fun when players have strenghts and weaknesses, rather than super soldiers facing each other. People stack the strong stats, and avoid the useless stats.

Most people know me as a Serve and Volley player in 2k25, which is funny cause I never played S&V in TS4. I mostly play S&V in 2k25 cause I feel the baseline game is boring right now. I find S&V fun to play, but I actually mostly prefer playing counter punchers and all-rounders. They don't have high strokes on both wings or high power either. These toons don't work so i'd rather just play S&V instead, even tho I think S&V is actually weak right now. I have more fun losing while S&Ving than on my "trying to be realistic" baseliner.

That's why I made this thread to begin with. Cause I had a feeling it would be "World tour but with 85 power", and more restrictions would needed. Still an upgrade from current World Tour right now tho. I don't play 2k Tour but I've heard it's all Sharapova and Williams cause of their power and high strokes, with people using Agassi to try and counter them.

Still, like I said earlier, there's only so much ITST can do. 2k has to step up and do their part as well.

[Hawk23]

Serve & Volley is unfortunately unplayable. Even if you play nearly perfectly and always hold your serve, you can't manage a break against reasonably good players. And if you don't hit a volley perfectly or at least well in a tiebreak, power players will just shoot the ball right through you. Then the player just raises their hands defensively at the net.

I think there are various ways to balance the game through ITST:
- Only 75 power
- No instant rocket
- Forehand and backhand together can have a maximum of 160 points

And of course, the rules can be changed again if 2K releases an update and nerfs power.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Serve & Volley is unfortunately unplayable. Even if you play nearly perfectly and always hold your serve, you can't manage a break against reasonably good players. And if you don't hit a volley perfectly or at least well in a tiebreak, power players will just shoot the ball right through you. Then the player just raises their hands defensively at the net.

I think there are various ways to balance the game through ITST:
- Only 75 power
- No instant rocket
- Forehand and backhand together can have a maximum of 160 points

And of course, the rules can be changed again if 2K releases an update and nerfs power.

Yeah. S&V is fun, but the current baseline builds, even with 85 power, are just perfect in every way. I would only recommend S&V to someone if they want to have fun and not care too much about winning.

The tour just started, and there are going to be "Tournies with new rules" to test stuff. Atleast that's what I remember from TS4.

Like right now there are people who want to ban the Slice outwide serve. Alot of people just serve outwide and hit down the line on every point. I recommended everyone serving from the T to try to reduce the angle, but even that might not be enough. 2k still has to do their part, and, like you said, ITST will adjust to any changes made.

If you or anyone has ideas you should post them imo. For all we know the rules people agree on could be a mishmash of ideas from different people.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

I'll add on any other restrictions others might have that I see on discord or in here to the original post at the bottom. So it's all accumulated in one spot.

Right now most people playing itst are running around with build somewhat similar to this:

Fh 90
Bh 90
Srv 30
Vol 30
Pow 85
Spe 90
Sta 85
Ref 50

After going through the pros I realized another thing. Something stuck out. Most of them have one strong wing, and one weak wing. Usually the weak wing was 10-30 points less than their strong wing. A lot of them having the weak wing around the 20 points lower than their strong wing.

When both wings were added together, most pros had around 130 - 140pts total.

Several stand out like Agassi, Sharapova, and Williams which explains why they are so popular.

Taking a further look at Hawk23's suggestion

- Forehand and backhand together can have a maximum of 160 points

this could go very well with creating characters with one weak/strong wing.

The question I asked myself was, "What kind of rules would make someone want to choose less power over more power as well?"

I think I might have found something that could try to incentivize this:

- If you have more than 70 power you cannot have more than 160pts total in your Backhand and Forhand combined.

So
Fh 90
Bh 70
Pow 85

Fh 80
Bh 80
Pow 85

Fh 85
Bh 75
Pow 85

You cannot have both wings higher than 80. If you have 90 in one wing the other has to be 70. It's a very easy way to verify just by looking at the stats

If someone wanted an Agassi-esque type build or a defensive baseliner, they would be able to use 85-90 strokes on both wings with 70 or less power. Examples like:

Fh 90
Bh 85
Pow 65

Fh 85
Bh 85
Pow 70

This might give people more of a reason to do more than just max power and 90 strokes. Coupled with 50 min, 90 max pts characters might start to look more "down to earth" than they currently do.

**I'll also update the original post to include any changes that crossed my mind**

[Hawk23]

The 160 was just an example.
Technically, Topspin 2k25 is excellent.
For optimal eSports, the task would be to ensure that the conditions are set to allow for five playing styles:

Offensive baseliner
Counterpuncher
Defensive baseliner
Serve & volley
All-rounder

That would be great...

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

The 160 was just an example.
Technically, Topspin 2k25 is excellent.
For optimal eSports, the task would be to ensure that the conditions are set to allow for five playing styles:

Offensive baseliner
Counterpuncher
Defensive baseliner
Serve & volley
All-rounder

That would be great...

Yes this would be ideal. Most builds I've seen while watching ITST matches have

Fh 90
Bh 97
Pow 85

Serve and Volley remain at 30. While reflexes is 50 or even 45. Most seem to think Serve, Volley, and Reflexes are the wasted stats.

There should a reason to want to have less power so other styles, besides high strokes + max power, can exist. Thanks to your example, that could be one way to accomplish it. Once you reach a power threshold you can only have a certain amount of points in your strokes.

[Hawk23]

So, first impressions after the new patch...

Everything is the same. It's still not possible to play S&V against 90FH, 90BH, 85 Power. Yes, you can hold your serve, but getting breaks is impossible.
Or maybe someone can explain to me how it could be done and which build works. But you can only hope for the luck of a tiebreak and that the opponent (almost always with Serve Counter) doesn't hit every ball.
But I stick to my opinion:
85 Power is too much and destroys any possible playstyles.
It's a shame, you end up playing against the same builds in every game. As I said... World Tour with 85 Power.

---

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

So, first impressions after the new patch...

Everything is the same. It's still not possible to play S&V against 90FH, 90BH, 85 Power. Yes, you can hold your serve, but getting breaks is impossible.
Or maybe someone can explain to me how it could be done and which build works. But you can only hope for the luck of a tiebreak and that the opponent (almost always with Serve Counter) doesn't hit every ball.
But I stick to my opinion:
85 Power is too much and destroys any possible playstyles.
It's a shame, you end up playing against the same builds in every game. As I said... World Tour with 85 Power.

---

I personally don't notice much from the new patch either. Power is still just as strong as it was.

Power affects the speed of your strokes, but the rating of your strokes also affects their power as well. It's 2 problems in one:

High power = Powerful strokes
High forehand/backhand = More Precise + Powerful strokes

As a result, High power + High Strokes = Just blast away

High strokes not only give better angles, but also more power. That's why if someone had

Fh 90 | 85 | 80
Bh 70 | 75 | 80
Pow 85

They wouldn't be able to blast away with very effective/precise/powerful shots on their backhand side as compared to their forehand side. Or if they went 80/80 that's a much different beast than 90/97.

You don't want to set the maximum power requirement too low either. Let's take your suggestion of 75. Let's also assume people need to have 50 pts minimum in all stats and 90 pts maximum. People who would go max power of 85 now get 10 extra points to put into something else. They'll just put it into more speed. You go from stonger builds with 85 power to less stronger builds but faster builds. Or more stamina or more reflex, depending on what people feel is the next best stat.

75 power would give people 10 more points to put into the next best stat.

You want to have a system that taxes people enough points to where they cannot be stacked on everything, so they can hopefully have weaknesses.

- Minimum 50 points in all stats
No more 30/30 srv/vol so people have less points to use

- Maximum 90 points in all stats
Remove the ability for people to have a "perfect" stat, cause when you go over 90 for certain stats they spiral out of control. I could see srv and vol being exempt from this rule cause those 2 aren't on the same lvl as fh/bh/pow

- Maximum of 85 power
Not too high so there is some point construction, rather than blast left/right, and agressive playstyles, but not too low so everyone can max out power and have more than enough points to stack everything else.

- If you have more than 70 power you cannot have more than 160pts total in your Backhand and Forhand combined (90fh/70bh, 80fh/80bh)
The idea is to prevent high strokes on both wings and hopefully create an attackable/weaker stroke. If you have 70 power or less then the restriction doesn't apply.


HONORABLE MENTION

- A ban on Coach Mikolaj

What I think is also making power a lot more "powerful" than it really should be is Diesel hard hitter. You don't need that skill to play aggressive, and in it's current form it's just broken imo. This is why 99% of builds on world tour and itst are running Mikolaj. You can win points without him, but with him your offense just goes beyond what it should be. I think banning Mikolaj would be great for this game.

[Hawk23]

I can't understand the logic behind banning a Sharapova with 83 Power while we can create players with 85 Power and far more skills than Sharapova and play with them in the ITST Tour at the same time.

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