G.O.A.T Status

Talk about anything related to the ATP and WTA tours.

Who is the greatest tennis player of all time?

Pete Sampras
9
30%
Roger Federer
15
50%
John McEnroe
0
No votes
Rod Laver
1
3%
Jimmy Connors
1
3%
Andre Agassi
2
7%
Björn Borg
2
7%
 
Total votes : 30

Postby SundanceKid » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:44

Squilari wrote:I think Jimmy Connors is the best of all times.
105 titles !!!!
My gosh....nobody will reach that mark,ever.


yepp right, but he had played untill he was over 40.
and martina navratilova has won 167 tiles :D :D :D .

but of course you're right, jimmy connors is one of the best ever.

but look, federer is still 26 and already won 51 titles. if he plays untill 35.....maybe something is possible.

but here i also have to say, comparing is difficult.
playing tennis in the 70's and 80's you cannot compare with tennis today. it wasn't so fast, not so intensive and so players hadn't much trouble with injuries. so jimmy connors could play many tnt's, even the smaller ones.

if roger would play more every year. maybe also all the small tnt's, he would collect more titles, but maybe he also had more trouble with injuries.

federer played only 13 tnt's 2007 until now. he won 6. still impressive that he could hold number 1.
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Postby Johnnn Boyyy » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 03:50

i didn't really read what everybody else said so my stuff may have been said already... but Roger Federer is the greatest tennis player to ever play the game. I know Pete was dominant when he played, but he went through a couple of years just winning 1 slam. Roger wins at least 1 every year and hes won 3 slams the last 2 years... and hes won 11 of the last 16 since 2004. never was Pete dominant like that. hes set the record for most consecutive weeks at #1... since feb. 2, 2004... and isn't about 2 lose it anytime soon.

i know Pete had alot more competition but you have to realise the "game" is a million times more physical and faster and alot harder than tennis used to be. people are hitting the ball harder than ever and play longer rallys and you have to be in excellent condition, mentally tough, and pretty much a freak on nature to be as dominant as fed has been on the game of tennis. Pete was tough, but even he wasn't as committed as Roger was at being the best. Its alot tougher to maintain a #1 ranking than it is to achieve one, (cough cough) Andy Roddick... I know roger is one cocky son of a bitch but seriously... if you had his kind of skills and abilities, would you not rub them in everyones face? i mean he has everyshot in the book, some he's created himself. He's great for the game and hes the best player to ever grace a tennis court. Watching him blast winners while not even breaking a sweat is amazing. Pete simply played mediocore games until he needed a break at 4-4 and would simply win sets like that, fed wants to win every game and beat his opponent at love every set. he wants you to remember why hes the greatest player in the history of tennis.

In my opinion he is one of the greatest atheletes of all time. Nobody in other sports can play all year around and win as many matches and be basically perfect in all sense of the game. And the way he handles himself off the court is why hes the greatest. The guy has learned and speaks fluently 5 languages. And after every match, he speaks to the media in all 5 of them to give back to the fans. Did Pete ever do that to give back to the game? I don't think so...

People can hate on Federer all they want for whatever reasons they want; "Pete plays classic serve and volley tennis" "Petes won more slams"
"Fed is too cocky and loves himself" "Fed is too good" or whatever your personal reasons may be, you cannot sit there and say he will not go down in history as the GREATEST OF ALL TIME for the game of tennis because when its all said and done, he will be no matter what. He will win many more slams, break alot more records, and beat more top players day in and day out, while maintaining the #1 ranking. I mean the guys only lost like 20 some times in 4 years. thats insane.

If you need anymore reasons why you guys are wrong, just point them out and ill try to correct your thoughts from being incorrect.
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Postby jayl0ve » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 04:08

I still think Sampras is the G.O.A.T, but trust me I am about as big a Federer fan as one can be...everything you said is true, but Federer's still never really 'wowed' me like Sampras has. Federer is a more 'complete' player, but I admire Sampras' single-mindedness and his 'all-out attack' way of playing tennis.
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Postby Q. Reese » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 04:24

I just looked at this guy's record Squilari.

I am going to go with Pete Sampras; and, if Federer wins the French, he will be the best of all time.
'06 Wimbledon, Hamburg Masters, & 4 Doubles' & 4 Singles' Titles
2 U.S. & French Doubles' Finals
542 Tournaments, 1024 vs. Opp., 1204 Rds.
Davis Cups/Captain/Rds.: 07/05/11
QF/SF/F/Title/End-Year Championships/Trophy: 105/49/20/10/10/30
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Postby Rob ITST » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:01

Sampras and Federer are about as equal as can be, they just have different approaches to the game and played in different eras.

I like the way Agassi summed it up during the U.S. Open: If you play great against Federer he beats you 6-4, 7-5; play poorly and he beats you 6-1, 6-0. If you play great against Sampras he beats you 6-4, 7-5; play poorly and he beats you 6-4, 7-5.

It's not that Sampras couldn't win like Roger, he was just content and confident enough to get 1 break a set; he knew he would hold serve.

I think it's fairly certain that Federer will beat the record of 14 Slams, but the 6 straight years finishing #1 might be a different story. As much as I would hate to see it, Nadal has a very good chance to pass Federer this year. Right now they stand at 1171 and 1012 in the Champions Race. With two Masters and the Masters Cup left, I wouldn't be surprised if Nadal finished #1.

There will always be an argument over who was better. You could say the Federer at 26 is better Sampras at 26, but then you also have to admit that a Sampras with the equipment and training of 2007 would be better than a Federer with the equipment and training of 1997.

The bottom line is that you can't compare athletes of different eras who play with different styles. They all benefit from the latest and greatest knowledge and technology. That's why records will always get broken and one day there will be some new guy who everyone says is the G.O.A.T.
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Postby Q. Reese » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:17

Rob wrote:Sampras and Federer are about as equal as can be, they just have different approaches to the game and played in different eras.

I like the way Agassi summed it up during the U.S. Open: If you play great against Federer he beats you 6-4, 7-5; play poorly and he beats you 6-1, 6-0. If you play great against Sampras he beats you 6-4, 7-5; play poorly and he beats you 6-4, 7-5.

It's not that Sampras couldn't win like Roger, he was just content and confident enough to get 1 break a set; he knew he would hold serve.

I think it's fairly certain that Federer will beat the record of 14 Slams, but the 6 straight years finishing #1 might be a different story. As much as I would hate to see it, Nadal has a very good chance to pass Federer this year. Right now they stand at 1171 and 1012 in the Champions Race. With two Masters and the Masters Cup left, I wouldn't be surprised if Nadal finished #1.

There will always be an argument over who was better. You could say the Federer at 26 is better Sampras at 26, but then you also have to admit that a Sampras with the equipment and training of 2007 would be better than a Federer with the equipment and training of 1997.

The bottom line is that you can't compare athletes of different eras who play with different styles. They all benefit from the latest and greatest knowledge and technology. That's why records will always get broken and one day there will be some new guy who everyone says is the G.O.A.T.


Good research. Also, I do like the Agassi quote.
'06 Wimbledon, Hamburg Masters, & 4 Doubles' & 4 Singles' Titles
2 U.S. & French Doubles' Finals
542 Tournaments, 1024 vs. Opp., 1204 Rds.
Davis Cups/Captain/Rds.: 07/05/11
QF/SF/F/Title/End-Year Championships/Trophy: 105/49/20/10/10/30
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Postby Sherlock 117 » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:32

Rob wrote:The bottom line is that you can't compare athletes of different eras who play with different styles. They all benefit from the latest and greatest knowledge and technology. That's why records will always get broken and one day there will be some new guy who everyone says is the G.O.A.T.


This is the key to me. When someone asks who the GOAT is, you always have to ask whether he means in overall comparative ability or in ability relative to his circumstances.

If the former, you have this argument between Sampras and Federer. Even so it is obvious that a strict comparison between the two players' tennis abilities, without extrapolating how good one may have been in the other's era, shows that Federer is the GOAT.

But if the latter, strictly relative argument, than you would have to give great consideration to Laver. It was so hard in his day to win all of the majors with travel concerns and much more frequent boycotting of events. He also played the dominant style of tennis that day so extremely well.

Yet a third posibility allows a combination of strict and relative comparisons, and this is usually where Pete wins out. Mainly because he was so much more loved than Federer, so that we all exagerrate how much better he would be than Federer had he played tennis at its current state; and he is much more concurrent with most interested tennis fans than Laver, so that it is impossible for people to extrapolate Laver's abilities to today's game.

To be honest, I am in awe almost every time I watch Federer play. I just loved watching Pete, his athleticism was so hypnotizing. But Federer is just amazing in every aspect of his tennis game. By today's standards he is nearly technically perfect on every shot, and has an impressive artistic flair to boot. Pete was for his day, but the standard for technical perfection has gone up dramatically even since his reign.

The way the question is implicitly stated, I would have to say that we are talking about a comparison that leans far more toward the strict side than the relative side. While we can consider that Pete would be marginally better had he trained in the current generation of tennis, we would also have to consider that he may not have been such a huge proponent of serve and volley tennis, and may not have made such an impression in today's army of baseliners. Federer plays a baseline game so much better than any other player ever has that I think he would even beat this idealized version of Pete, and so is my pick for GOAT.

Hope you enjoyed...
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Postby Q. Reese » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:20

Sherlock 117 wrote:The bottom line is that you can't compare athletes of different eras who play with different styles. They all benefit from the latest and greatest knowledge and technology. That's why records will always get broken and one day there will be some new guy who everyone says is the G.O.A.T.


I think that it is quite fair to do this. Given the opponents and racket technology in an era, the players are always balanced.

If they can use this type of racket, the opponent can use the same type of racket. Despite the era, this concept is the same.

Due to this, a tennis champion is a tennis champion no matter the era he or she played/plays in.
'06 Wimbledon, Hamburg Masters, & 4 Doubles' & 4 Singles' Titles
2 U.S. & French Doubles' Finals
542 Tournaments, 1024 vs. Opp., 1204 Rds.
Davis Cups/Captain/Rds.: 07/05/11
QF/SF/F/Title/End-Year Championships/Trophy: 105/49/20/10/10/30
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Postby Johnnn Boyyy » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:35

how does federer not "wow" you every time he plays? i mean he makes reutine shots of cross court passing shots with the flick of his wrists. i think thats the prettiest shot in tennis. the one handed backhand pass that he hits almost perfect everytime. all of his shots are so graceful and eligent and what i like most is he is QUIET! take notes Maria! i mean he goes about his business and wins and does it in style. Pete's game wasn't as pretty and wasn't as effective in my opinion. i mean his serve was unbelieveable but he didn't have much of a complete game. serve and volley is nice... but he couldn't last 20+ shot rallys in todays game wether he had the new technology or not. He just wasn't in shape day in and day out as Federer is. For a while Sampras got lazy and didn't keep in shape, he just blasted serves and won by going for broke. And Fed will not lose his #1 ranking... hes more than 2000 points in the rankings above Nadal... the race is nothing more than getting to the masters series finals... the only one in danger is Nadal losing his #2 to Djokovic.
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Postby Sherlock 117 » Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:49

Ummm, to whom are you speaking Johnnn Boyyy? If it is to me, I said I am wowed by Federer...
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Postby Rob ITST » Wed, 03 Oct 2007 01:16

Johnnn Boyyy wrote:And Fed will not lose his #1 ranking... hes more than 2000 points in the rankings above Nadal... the race is nothing more than getting to the masters series finals... the only one in danger is Nadal losing his #2 to Djokovic.


Those 2000 points are in the Entry rank, and aren't guarenteed at the end of the year; he must defend them to keep them. If he doesn't do as well for the remainder of the year as he did last year, and Nadal does better, then he will lose that lead. The Entry rank is nothing more than the Race rank plus the Masters Cup. Then they multiply everything times 5, for some weird reason.

I agree he will probably still be #1, I just said it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't.
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Postby SundanceKid » Wed, 03 Oct 2007 02:38

Rob wrote:
Those 2000 points are in the Entry rank, and aren't guarenteed at the end of the year; he must defend them to keep them. If he doesn't do as well for the remainder of the year as he did last year, and Nadal does better, then he will lose that lead. The Entry rank is nothing more than the Race rank plus the Masters Cup. Then they multiply everything times 5, for some weird reason.

I agree he will probably still be #1, I just said it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't.


you're right, but comparing in this case is very difficult once more. sampras never had to deal with the new ranking system, which has been started in 2000. 1998 was sampras's last year i mean, where he finished at number 1.

so please, why for all the world you are such dogged to compare these two players from different epochs. why not saying, sampras was a real enrichment and federer still is a real one for the tennis sport?????

both are giants.....let it go at that!
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Postby Johnnn Boyyy » Wed, 03 Oct 2007 02:57

i was talking to jaylove... he said fed doesn't wow him and he said sampras did... so i was j/w why... and Nadal wont be playing many tourneys cause of his knees... and Federer is taking time off cause he needs rest himself and he knows Nadal is the only person who can take his spot away. Federer only entered like 16 events this year so far... and still has a massive lead in the rankings...
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Postby Rob ITST » Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:04

Sherlock 117 wrote: you would have to give great consideration to Laver. It was so hard in his day to win all of the majors with travel concerns and much more frequent boycotting of events. He also played the dominant style of tennis that day so extremely well.


Imagine too, if Laver had been allowed to play the Majors between '63 and '67, how many he would have won.

Then there's Connors. If he had been allowed to play the French the year he won the other three, most assume he would have won the Grand Slam.
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Postby Q. Reese » Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:29

Yes. There are way too many possiblities to determine one's status for setting records. There are a lot of "what if" for sure.
'06 Wimbledon, Hamburg Masters, & 4 Doubles' & 4 Singles' Titles
2 U.S. & French Doubles' Finals
542 Tournaments, 1024 vs. Opp., 1204 Rds.
Davis Cups/Captain/Rds.: 07/05/11
QF/SF/F/Title/End-Year Championships/Trophy: 105/49/20/10/10/30
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