A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

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A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby mignogna » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 11:37

Hello! I wanted to open a debate about that matter time ago, and it is fair to say that what happened in my RG quaterfinal finally made me find time and strenght to write this post. I'm still very embittered about that, of course about my retirement, but mainly because of the whole story made me reflect on some issues that have always been present in itst.

Now, I think (and if not I try) to be a fair player, I remember to had had just a few of discussions, mainly solved almost instantly and always with the same players (yeah, I'm talking about you mohd, you are always the worst :D ). I've always thought that consistency in being fairly is the primary form of courtesy both in life and in ITST. In our community it is revealed in paying attention to a series of behaviors such as be precise in match fixing, asking who prefers to host, apologize on lucky points and so on; but there some basical problems which cannot be solved so easily.

As I am a law practicer, I tend to focus on what we called effectivenes of the rules; a rule should be first told, than the community must find a way to make the rules being respected otherwise the rules is just said but it does not STAND; a rule that stands is an effective rule. Than after a system of rules has been approved there is another primary matter: what happends if two rules are incompatible one each other? That's the problem of rules BALANCING; the deeper the rules are clearly balanced the more is high the civility level of a community. Ok, simply in this community there are a lot rules that are nor effective, neither clearly balanced, and know, despite my english, I'll try to give the best picture of what I mean.

There is a list of rule which seems to be clear and it is the quote
"In real life you need a decent racket and a decent court to play a match in good conditions. In the same way, it's a player responsibility to bring a decent hardware and a decent internet connexion to play matches in decent conditions.
This is an important point to preserve a good gaming experience and keep matches competitive in the right way among the tour. Very poor hardware or connexion leading to extreme lag may lead a player to be suspended until the issue is fixed".

In another post by djarvik it seems that the delay allowed is 100-150 and just because if the connection is stable and doesn't have spikes it can be the half of the ping.

It seems clear or isn't it?

No. this is not the situation I faced. After 20 min of playing against cahill I realized that conditions were totally unplayable: lag 217, 1% of lost packages, spikes from 350 to 800 and even 1080, freezin :shock: g turtles and so on, and all of that was cycling every 5-6 minutes;

I claim the for the applying of the rules above to find an equal solution but don, the host, sais that I agreed to play in that conditions and so the match was supposed to be ended, and I couldn't ask neither for the coin toss.
After the suspension situation was even worse, with all the same but 10% of lost packages, I was in advantage after the first suspension and we were equal when I decided to retire.

How the rules work? I provide a stable connection, I see my opponent having 217 delay, I decide to see if it is playable because I don't wanna have discussions and I wanna respect the importance of a RG quaterfinal, and don't I have the right of testing the playability of the game even if I have respected a primary rule? And then, don't I have the right to ask for a coin toss because I need the agreement of the other who has not provide a stable and decent connection? Has the host the right to decide ABSLOLUTELY according to his will something that would be much better to be fixed by the community? And if the others disagree what happends?

I have had some pm with c4hill, and he told me that I'm uncapable to deal with turtles, I'm a pussy and so on, because turtles and delay are like the wind, and so both players suffer the chaos of luck.
I'm sorry guys, I don't agree, it is not the wind, that is c4hill's wind, and c4hill's delay. Everyone is supposed play in HIS court but he never plays in a fair court (of course I'm talking about c4hill but it would stand for anyone else).

After I had retired isaldor and vmoe said both they would have taken different decisions, and vmoe stated that the maximum lag he had faced was 187; before the match against c4hill it was the same for me, it was against thiagolima, but the connection was stable, the match was playable and I thought it was a match I could have lost fairly; even with mohd, the sporadic turtles are counterbalanced with a 150 delay, that make tollerable the unoptimal connection, I lost against him this year, just congrats and stop.

Is it possible to know precisely how this matter are judged? Everyone of us knows this game, it is so complex and requires, especially at the beginning, A LOT OF TIME AND SACRIFICE. We want to expand our community, right? So, can we finally deal with this sort of troubles, this time it is mine but it's gonna always afflict others, especially rookies and newcomers.
And for you admins and hosts, is it possible to stop for a while and examine the fact that our rules should be improved and are supposed to be better balanced? I really feel disoriented and disappointed, and since I have passed more than one year on the community I hope answers would come soon.

p.s. this is my first post, I decided to talk a bit more in order to pinpoint the object at the best I could, if someone is disturbed by its length I apologize, but it was really an hard stroke. And just as I said to him, I have nothing personal against c4hill, I think in fair conditions we can play beautiful matches; simply I can't stand this state of things.

bye and thanks
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby Pablo Hernandez » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 11:54

Hey mignogna I agree with you that it's not fair to play in those conditions and myself lately Have experienced the worst one I ever had vs daemon with high ping delay spikes and others. It leaves the opponent in the advantage as they are used to the conditions as we are used to playing in low delay as out matches was 50-60 or how much it was and after we played a long match you retired from your match because of uneven conditions and I'm sure he last thing you would do is retire just for the sake of it and having no reason for it. There's things we can't control such as high ping from sigapore and others places therefore we have to play in those conditions. It's not C4 fault he lives there and so on he is a great player but balancing out the field to make it fair would be the best solution but how would the issues be sorted out what can hosts do in these situations.

I agree something needs to be looked into as it is a big problem from time to time and unless someone looks into it could get worse.
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby FEDERER2 » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 15:20

I completely agree with what Pablo said, it isn't C4's fault that he lives in Singapore, and that it isn't very possible to have a stable connection from there. However, most of you are adults from what I know, calling someone bad names and swearing at them over this and over the video game in general is downright childish. This is still one of the fairest tennis communities, but it isn't right to have people swearing at others because of a video game. If there was one thing I would change, it's the 3 strike rule for complaints regarding this issue. If you are an adult using vulgar language over something as little as this game, then you do not deserve to be competing in a FRIENDLY league. As a host, if I read match reports, and someone is doing this, I immediately disqualify them as I have no tolerance for this, neither do other hosts.

About connection, i'm very sorry to all of the players I have had laggy connection against. As a fair person myself, and a lover of this game, it is just as tough for me to give away points because of lags, or even have to play through them. It doesn't feel like a real win. Anyway I wish you great luck in the future mignogna, and I already see the tour improving with the strictness of the rules (maybe because there are more abusers :P), and I hope to see you back here.
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Doubles #1! 8-5-16
Big doubles titles: FEDERER2 slam 2016 RG - 2017 AO
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby mohd954 » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 16:37

hey there I'm always saying that mignogna is a great player and great person , and c4ill ping is horrible actually
cuz he is too far from us and and he is disrespectful tbh with u , and I like when u said I'm always worst , thnx god I'm better than before a lot , and our ping is stable mignogna also in the final of de france but after de france,the other matches we played was with 133ms and it was perfect :)
so anyway I hope that don let u WO cuz u deserve it more than c4ill
that's all
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby C4iLL » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:15

You know... You could have been intelligent about this stuff, just opening a debate about high pings or something like that. You would have seen how nobody cares about this matter ; you would have been told that most top players have been easily destroying the high ping players for years now... with the notorious exception of Isaldor.

You could have alternatively written a quick complaining message or just done nothing and tried to figure out the real reasons behind your defeat/retirement.

But instead, you chose the wrong option. You’re basically introducing yourself as some kind of a legal expert to present incredibly false facts and biased opinions as pure truth. It's not only dishonest, it’s manipulative. You use some kind of fake autority to make your story more believable/persuasive. Good trick and at the end, the public might have a totally false version of the story if I don’t take time to rectify.

I know, it's internet, hoax are everywhere, everything is allowed, we're only avatars on a website... But here you went too far.
You wanted to go on the legal field, let's go. For the record, I too, hold a master degree in business law…

When a lawyer loses a lawsuit, there are only three possibilities :

1) You're a bad lawyer. The case was easy to win, but you didn't defend it well.
2) The case was not winnable. You can say what you want, the rules are the rules and you won't win it.
3) The judge has been paid.

Your case was not winnable for various reasons :

1) The legal part.


A) The notion of acceptation

In-game fact n°1 : you accepted to play for 34 minutes and two sets.
The principle : silence means acceptation in law.
Quality of the parties : you told us you're a law specialist, good. How can a law specialist seriously implies he’s not aware of one the most basic principle that constitutes the notion of compliance ? It is taught year 1 in any law faculty all over the world !

Conclusion : By remaining silent during the very first games, you accepted the conditions and we legally exchanged our contentment for the match to happen (you didn't open the chat, you didn’t express any hesitation). Your acceptation has been renewed continuously all along these 34 minutes.

B) Changes in initial conditions = break of contract

Principle : if the conditions of a contract change, you can potentially break it (stop the match).
In-game fact n°2 : The initial conditions have never changed and it has been proven through multiple elements (screenshots of packet loss, analysis of various in-game stats, testimony of a veteran member).

Watching the .dmo of the match would have been another proof of the healthy conditions : it would show two players able to turn frequently around BH, paint the lines, hit deep service return and defend perfectly well. Moves, points, and tactics that players could not do under the influence of turtles and lags.

Conclusion
: Mignona brang insufficient elements to back his complain about an hypothetical change in conditions. As the conditions remained the same, the host logically asked the players to respect the contract and finish the match.

C) The judge of the contract (match) = the Host of the tournament.

Principle : in most legal system you can call upon a decision and get a second or third decision on a given case. Not on ITST it’s what we call a « one degree jurisdiction ». The host of a tournament is the unique judge of the contract and the only person that needs to be persuaded.
Principle 2 : when his decision has been pronounced, both parties need to comply with it. The public forum is not a second order of jurisdiction, nor are other managers of the community.
Principle 3 : publicly questioning the relevance of a host decision can qualify you to a warning or a suspension (hidden rule based on previous observations).

Conclusion : Other judges such as VMoe’s, or Isaldor’s opinions are irrelevant. Parties didn’t explain to them the details of the case as they have no power on the destiny of the contract.
With this message, Mignogna is publicly questioning the relevance of a host decision, making him potentially candidate for a warning or a suspension.
---
In the next message the public will have the Technical part (part 2) ; the Stats part (part 3) ; the Damage part (part 4).
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby C4iLL » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:45

Your case wasn't winnable because...

2) Technical aspect : the game was perfectly playable.

a) Who's really coming to the court with a "bad racket" here ?

- Against VMoe I apparently ping at 270 ms.
- Against Leonmonstroso I ping at something like around 200
- Against Kenos from Italy I ping at 200.
- I played people like Karse (lost), Clement (lost), Federer2, and a lot more in official matches or practices without any problem.

Meanwhile, the ping against Mignogna is locked at 350. 150 more than Kenos, from the same country, 100 more than all the french I play against etc.

b) The ping is stable

We had a few turtles here and here, but no spike to 800-1000. We had no freeze during the match, typical of a 1000 ms spike. The ping was quite stable.

Hence comes the biggest lie of Migngona : he wrote we had a 10% ratio of packet loss. My answer : bring the screenshot. If not --> it's an open public lie and false accusation.

Don't wait for the screenshot, it will never come. The truth is the following : the lag ratio has always been at 1% perhaps at 2 in the second part of the match. And the guy multiplied it by x10 without any proof. Great !
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby C4iLL » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:56

The case wasn't winnable because...

3) The stats & style prove the conditions were healthy to play a top level match.

- We had a ratio of 95% in success in our shots.

- The stats showed we played a huge amount of FH, the game conditions allowing us to turn a lot around BH.

- The average rally lenght is around 10.

- My number of winner was exponential, I dominated short and long rallies. He touched a lot the lines but wasn't able to finish because he was far from baseline to prevent the deep counters. He was unable to step-in, step back well, so he kept stepping back.

- The winner/UE ratio of both players was classic for a Nadal-Murray match played in high ping on clay : both players defending well with high spin, risking a lot to finish points, both making UE. One of the two players started to dominate and the other started to complain.
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby isaldor » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:59

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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby djarvik » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:59

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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby C4iLL » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 19:12

Last but NOT LEAST....

4) The damage caused by Mignogna.

A) The damages extent
- He made his opponent lose time : C4 opened Tennis Elbow two times for nothing.

- His retirement hurt the respectability of his fellow C4 opponent. He goes further with this accusing message, full of lies but empty of proof. How will C4 get practice sets now ?

- Mignogna hurt ITST organization by leaving early in a match, making the future winner of the tournament less legitimate.

- Mignogna attacked the integrity/competencies of a host without any logical basis or proofs to do so.

- Mignogna is discriminating a Minority, the non-european players.

B) The reparation

C4 wants Mignogna to play 1000 sets against Mohd at 350 ms of ping.
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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby C4iLL » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 19:36

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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby mignogna » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 22:58

why are you giving us this show?

the post was about rules-issues, our match was just a cue to speak about something else, you did actually spam that stuff for three pages referring to my incapability of proving something. I don't have anything to proof, because there's not a trial, and i have decided to retire, i'm not hoping for a different end of the match.

so i clearly don't understand you're reply; it would be nice for you to remember that the same line of critics (which are personal and unproofable - just as mine-) you did can be done by everyone, but there are not so many people willing to do it for three pages, while accusing someone of being a manipulator, lier, pussy etc...

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Re: A focus on itst rules effectivenes and balancing

Postby VMoe86 » Tue, 20 Jun 2017 22:59

There are some valid points in there, but in the end it turns out to be about a particular case and not about how we could do better in general. For that reason I am forced to close this thread and will move it to a private section. I let this stay in public a bit longer, so that all persons involved can see what has been written.
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