Drop shot and rush to the net

[PerfectAce]

Hi mates.

Just like to read the opinion of anybody about this tactic. Do you consider it cheesy?

Just decided to bring this to public after I heard that it´s unfair to use this in a match. IMO, if you do that a few times in the match, when you are attacking and your opponent is in defense, far away from the baseline, is a great strategy. To be honest, I believe that after a drop shot YOU MUST GO to the net. I can´t understand some real players that do a really bad drop and stay in the baseline to loose the point...

Anyway, back to TE, I do consider it cheesy if it´s abused. But just drop shooting a lot by it self would be considered unfair. So, is it wrong to go to the net after a drop shot? I don´t think so, just my opinion.

What do you think guys???

Cheers,

[Kono]

It is not wrong at all IMO, one more style to play the point, adds variety which is important. BUT if it is too effective it should be done harder to execute, like every other playstyle/strategy. It can't work everytime you do it.

[Algo4]

From Winstom-Salem thread

I see nothing wrong with that, is actually often used in real life to make a drop shot (and/or short slice) as an approach to the net.
As long as the player don't abuse

Mmm, i don't think that we can compare real tennis with tennis game . You say that in real tennis it is usual and so we can do the same in Tennis Elbow. But in real tennis you can serve in very wide position but if you do this in Tennis Elbow or Top spin, you take an advantage, so it was a no-written rule don't serve from wide position.so you can't compare real tennis and Tennis Elbow. In my experience i played against vanilla online players(as inseedious written) and on important points they do this tactic and against very strong opponents i did't do anything to esacape to this.why on important points they play with this tecnique? Maybe it is hard to return.... But if bigger part of yours says that isn't "cheesy" i agree because i know that you can do everything in good way
Last thing, i don't like read "you can do it but don't abuso with it". Why? If one abuse could win ? And if one make it only for save match point? As in Vanilla game? Wrong, the topic isn't the numbers of rallies with this tactic, but if you use it to win an important point. So discussion are opened

- If you think we can't compare real tennis to the game, then ITST is senseless because we're looking for realism with it. Or at least the most we could ask for a game
- 'Importance' can't be the measurement either, because almost anything could be a 'not correct tactic', specially on 'important points' as that's too subjective. If you were on a bp and saw your opponent way back in the court, would you think it's fair to be forbidden of hitting a drop shot and rushing to the net?. I don't, that's only the logical thing to do if that's the situation.

[C4iLL]

Something like 4-5 dropshots in 2 sets could be admitted I think if we want realism. Except Dolgopolov or maybe Gasquet, not a lot of players use that technique often because it's way too random...

Why not setting a rule ? After a match, the Host could check the .dmo file to check if the number of dropshots have been exceeded if there is a complain from the opponent ; if the number has been exceeded --> disqualification, simple and effective rule for everybody

[eliomelma]

Copy my post :

I see nothing wrong with that, is actually often used in real life to make a drop shot (and/or short slice) as an approach to the net.
As long as the player don't abuse

Mmm, i don't think that we can compare real tennis with tennis game . You say that in real tennis it is usual and so we can do the same in Tennis Elbow. But in real tennis you can serve in very wide position but if you do this in Tennis Elbow or Top spin, you take an advantage, so it was a no-written rule don't serve from wide position.so you can't compare real tennis and Tennis Elbow. In my experience i played against vanilla online players(as inseedious written) and on important points they do this tactic and against very strong opponents i did't do anything to esacape to this.why on important points they play with this tecnique? Maybe it is hard to return.... But if bigger part of yours says that isn't "cheesy" i agree because i know that you can do everything in good way
Last thing, i don't like read "you can do it but don't abuso with it". Why? If one abuse could win ? And if one make it only for save match point? As in Vanilla game? Wrong, the topic isn't the numbers of rallies with this tactic, but if you use it to win an important point. So discussion are opened

[Elias]

Something like 4-5 dropshots in 2 sets could be admitted

i 'm pretty sure to remember a match where i saw djokovic hit more than 4 drops in one set. 4-5 in two sets is really a low number imo.

If you play against a ferrer running like a rabbit behind the baseline and outlasting you, sure you will hit drop shots else you won't probably be able to counter his playstyle. drops & netplay i guess.

Why not forbidding strong serves, coz' it's too hard to return

[C4iLL]

The fact is dropshots are easier to make in that game than in real life.

A good solution would be to lower a lot the dropshot stat of every player in order to make that shot clearly more risky than it is currently : instead of forbidding it, people would think twice before doing it in the game... as in real life

[Elias]

The fact is dropshots are easier to make in that game than in real life.

A good solution would be to lower a lot the dropshot stat of every player in order to make that shot clearly more risky than it is currently : instead of forbidding it, people would think twice before doing it in the game... as in real life

i think a lower stat doesnt makes the shot harder to execute, but just make the drop less effective, bounce wise.

Still we may test further drop effectiveness and tweak the stats if needed we'll see. Ithink drops were too much effective in a previous version, can't remember when exactly, but i think Manutoo already tweaked drops bounce to be less effective since he added some back/forward movement inertia. I feel like it's acceptable right now , i can still reach several drops, if i'm using a fast enough char that is (ferrer ! )

Though it still feels slower to run forward than on the sides, but i think it may be an optical feeling due to the cam, i think Manu already answered @ MG forum that forward speed is the same (?), i'll check about it. Though i guess we may run faster forward than left/right i guess.. drops are always a though one to balance in any tennis game i knew

[manutoo]

A few things :
1- forward speed is same than lateral speed ; use top view camera to check that by yourself
2- in Fair Mode, ie: with 100% speed, power, consistency & drop shot, I can usually win more than 50% of the dropshots vs a opponent of equal skills ; it requires to know well how to use the B1 body shot to make shorter ball ; ie: if you hit the ball closer of your body, it'll produce a slower but also shorter strike which is very effective against the dropshot, even if your opponent came to the net ; you also need to be used to the left/right timing in that zone of the court ; doing a lot of volleying in warmup mode against the CPU might help about that ; it also requires to be not too far of the baseline
3- with ITST settings, ie: less power & consistency, it means the base strikes & accelerations are shorter, so it's easier to stay closer of the baseline, making easier to catch the dropshots ; lower speed skill attenuate this, though
4- No rebound preview means it can very hard to judge the current strike is a dropshot (ie: no 3D perception, so it's harder to judge the depth & speed of strikes, especially with low camera views)
5- All previous points means it might be a bit too hard to catch the dropshot, but it's a matter of tuning the different parameters
6- Easiest parameter to tune is the dropshot skill, which will make the dropshot a bit longer
7- personally, I'd think it's very strange to make a rule to limit the number of dropshots per match ; that could lead to even more exploit => a player stands 6 meters from the baseline & then complains his opponent drop shot too often
8- Dropshots are somewhat easier to do in TE than in real life, but they are also less effective (try to do a winning drop shot against the CPU, without standing 1 or 2 meters inside the baseline... )

Hopefully, it's food for thoughts...

[L Sanchez MD]

Manutoo is right. Dropshots are easier, but less effective. So it doesn't really need nerfed.
How many times have you hit a dropshot winner? It's not often.

BTW, is it just me, or are drop volleys very difficult to execute? Maybe it's because my character's dropshot or volley skills aren't the best, but I always dump it straight into the net/ground, or it doesn't register as a drop volley. If I'm playing with one of the top pros, I can get them sometimes, but in career mode it's a nightmare.

[Ary1g]

A few things :
1- forward speed is same than lateral speed ; use top view camera to check that by yourself

6- Easiest parameter to tune is the dropshot skill, which will make the dropshot a bit longer

8- Dropshots are somewhat easier to do in TE than in real life, but they are also less effective (try to do a winning drop shot against the CPU, without standing 1 or 2 meters inside the baseline... )

Hopefully, it's food for thoughts...

What's the reasoning for having exact same speed/speed acceleration in all directions? Shouldn't forward speed be the fastest and, or quickest accelerating one? Imagine 100m races being started sideways or backwards...

Also, I find it a bit weird that inertia should have so much effect when running "north", then adjusting the direction by going a little "north-east", then back "north"..

If the forward movement was a bit quicker accelerating, drops could have increased efficiency, thus still making bad/random drops less effective, because it's easier to reach them. Personally, I don't have much problem with reaching drops as long as I'm not wrong-footed or too far from the baseline. Still, I wouldn't mind a bit quicker acceleration on forward speed. Would increase net efficiency. Also I think it would feel much more realistic if the forward acceleration was quicker than sideways etc. I may be wrong though. Pro players irl are ridiculously fast sideways too

In addition, making forward acceleration slower/same as sideways when stamina is drained, would also make for balancing it. Then people can't just play a random drop early in a point and get away with it, whilst not making it impossible to win points with drops

I don't know. It's just some thoughts I already got after my first hours of TE and still feel could be improved.

Other thoughts is maybe having two parameters for speed: Acceleration and Speed.

Some players are more explosive than others, while still slower than some less explosive players. Meaning they would be quicker to reach max speed than other players, but not necessarily faster than others. Would also be a good feature for S&V players, being more explosive and getting faster to the net than baseliners. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these "parameters" are only controlled by height and weight in the game atm. (?)

Again, this is just thoughts and questions. No suggestions. I'm just interested in learning more about this game. Sorry for bad phrasings or anything that sounds wrong. It's very late here and I'm quite tired. Still, wanted to post it now and see what people think and respond to these thoughts.

[Elias]

Ary1g made some good points here i think

I also think the main issue with forward acceleration is the fact it's more difficult to play serve & volley after a first serve than after a slow second kick serve.

There may be different solutions for this, i don't know how the movement acceleration code is linked to other variables in TE, besides the height of a character, is there some additional inertia triggered after a b1+b2 serve for instance, like it is after a regular rally acceleration ?

A solution should be to give a forward bonus acceleration after the serve depending the playstyle, bigger bonus for the Volleyer, reasonably lower one for the Varied, and so on. If this bonus is triggered only after the serve, this would allow more S&V after first serves, without messing up the game balance regarding drop shots and movement during the rallies.

Linking the forward inertia/acceleration amount to the stamina bar is not a bad idea either to balance drops effectiveness, this may bring some added touch of realism, drops being more effective against an exhausted opponent
But this will also prevent to use good S&V when your char is drained, to save some stamina, wich is a bit too bad regarding realism in some way.

[Ary1g]

A solution should be to give a forward bonus acceleration after the serve depending the playstyle, bigger bonus for the Volleyer, reasonably lower one for the Varied, and so on. If this bonus is triggered only after the serve, this would allow more S&V after first serves, without messing up the game balance regarding drop shots and movement during the rallies.

Linking the forward inertia/acceleration amount to the stamina bar is not a bad idea either to balance drops effectiveness, this may bring some added touch of realism, drops being more effective against an exhausted opponent

These two features combined, would eliminate your next point/potential problem. By keeping the forward bonus after serve, regardless of, or less affected by, stamina.

But this will also prevent to use good S&V when your char is drained, to save some stamina, wich is a bit too bad regarding realism in some way.

[eliomelma]

[quote="eliomelma"]
inseedious wrote:
Elio i was talking about just drops, not drop+volley
Quote:


Copy inseedious post:

I met a 1950 ELO ranked player who faced all my 2 match points with dropshots + net rushing, and then won thanks of a break won with dropshots and unnecessary lobs.


Inseedious these are your words, you are talking about this, no?


Sorry elio, I thought that you were talking about my post in the tournament rules thread. However yes, I mentioned drop+volley, but my focus was on drops, cause there are also other ways to surely win a point after dropping. We're talking about the same thing, because my opponent can hit just 2 drops in every match, but doing it just on break/match points just makes him unbeatable (of course only if he knows how to win all dropping points).

[manutoo]

Ary1g (& everybody),
I had a look at running up, then up-right then up again, and I found out there was a bug (more a conceptual mistake than a bug actually) ; it'll be fixed in next update.
While I was at that, I also did a bit of research, and I decided to convert some of the speed while turning, which means you lose less speed when changing of direction (if turning by less than 1/8th = 22.5°).
The result of these 2 changes is that it's much easier to catch the drop shots, especially if you react early when you notice the strike animation.

About front/side speed : I'd not be surprised if in real life, it's faster to start to run to the side. Sprinters don't start to run from side, but they do start to run with 1 foot behind the other one. In tennis, you have 1 foot behind the other one only if you run to the side ; when you run forward, you actually have to take one first slow step before to start your run.
Thus said, I think the same speed in all directions (even backward) is easier to handle & feel adequate gameplay wise (it's still hard enough to catch lob for example).

Low energy already lowers (a bit) the run speed.

TeManager has a Tonicity skill which determines the acceleration (coupled with the Speed skill) ; it is an hidden skill in TE2011, but it's used by CPU Players in the World Tour.