Tennis Elbow 2011 Match Stories Thread

[VMoe86]

@Elias: Great, looking forward to the results of this test!

I also agree on the first part of your post.

[djarvik]

Remember, some stroke animations give a bit of an advantage then others.

Also, AI has a tendency to balance his game play, basically play per script. A script that can be programmed and edited into each player. That script controls the play style, aggressiveness, volley approaches, risks...basically every aspect. So a player may have powerful strokes, but a script may force AI to play top spins and go net. As well as a player may have a great volley skill and script my pin this player to the baseline for the most part.

The testing with AI is very problematic because of that and will not yield the desired results.

What we want is human logic and testing. That works best. When I came up with the current stats - that is exactly what I did. Basically play tons of matches again different AI players. I could not rely on a feedback of one match or feedback of playing against one type of opponent.

Another thing to take into account that certain game situations/shots work better then others. While AI will play balanced and according to the script, the human opponent will try and seek out the situations that work best and exploit them.

I also disagree about all players having same amount of points. I think we should not even look at points and values at all. We need to look at actual "playing". For example. Del Potro now has almost the lowest amount of points. Does it make him somehow weaker? No. Why? Because they are all in the "right" categories for the play style.

I say throw away the number and go strictly by feel.

Do you feel right now, after 2.5 tournaments that any one player is extremely overpowered or underpowered? If yes - then lets discuss that, lest see it what area and lets try to adjust that area only, within reason. Forget the actual numbers. Too many variable to count the 1 for 1 numbers and compare them.....

[eliomelma]

the roster is far from being balanced.. why continue to launch tournaments before having a solid environment to start with ?

Regarding balancement of the roster: It would be helpful if more players here used a variety of players and not just those with whom they can play the best.

I think that speed of players in general has to be adjusted, for instance. There is a reason why in "Realistic" Mode all stats are limited to 90%. Maybe we should adjust the roster to "Realistic" or "Fair" mode?

Yes i agree that speed has to be adjusted, it is too high, but i think that some players have both wings too strong, unreal (ex davydenko, simon)and others should be powered( nadal)

[eliomelma]

For use all the players as i say in previous post, i think that we can try to use different players for tournament value: for a 250 the 2tier and 3 tier players avaiable in tournament signup, for a 1000 or grand slam all the players avaiable , for a challange future only 3tier avaiable and something as this way.

[RussianBoy]

Finally, my first win on Tour against D.Ornelas! It was a very difficult match. A lot of mistakes because of the desynch. Result:

[djarvik]

WOW. Some good serving. 23 aces - 23 winners. You haven't scored one winner of the ground!!!

[VMoe86]

Remember, some stroke animations give a bit of an advantage then others.

That's true.

Also, AI has a tendency to balance his game play, basically play per script. A script that can be programmed and edited into each player.

[...]

The testing with AI is very problematic because of that and will not yield the desired results.

That is true, too. AI vs. AI will never be as much of an indicator as human vs. human, that's sure. I believe that these AI vs. AI matches will yield results, which are not too far off. After all, the more I play like the AI, the better I play with that respective player.

What we want is human logic and testing. That works best. When I came up with the current stats - that is exactly what I did. Basically play tons of matches again different AI players. I could not rely on a feedback of one match or feedback of playing against one type of opponent.

That's what I am doing all the time and in general I am quite satisfied with the results, but some stats like speed and consistency in serve or strokes need adjustments. High speed allows camping in corners and the fast players just have to wait and react. Or playing on Simulation Controls one can literally spam short accelerations with Simon, Davydenko or Nalbandian ("Consistency") -- maybe with some others, too, but these are the most prominent examples.

I also disagree about all players having same amount of points. I think we should not even look at points and values at all. We need to look at actual "playing".

Elias (and I) didn't have in mind same points (ok, the suggestion of "Realistic" or "Free" Mode was that ), but some players are weaker by a margin. You are pointing out a good example:

For example. Del Potro now has almost the lowest amount of points. Does it make him somehow weaker? No. Why? Because they are all in the "right" categories for the play style.

I consider him weaker (as an opponent), not just because I can beat him on Master 10 with Kohlschreiber. After all, his serve won't give him that many free points because it is relatively inconsistent. I bet it is more difficult to return Davydenko's serve in online matches than del Potro's.

Do you feel right now, after 2.5 tournaments that any one player is extremely overpowered or underpowered? If yes - then lets discuss that, lest see it what area and lets try to adjust that area only, within reason. Forget the actual numbers. Too many variable to count the 1 for 1 numbers and compare them.....

I kind of expected my losses against eliomelma (I usually lost sets 2-6 or 1-6 against Federer on clay when I played as Fish or Tsonga on Master 1, rarely got to 4-6 or so), because clay is not favourable for Fish's and Tsonga's style. Both times my opponent said I played better. As Kohlschreiber I could compete in one set against the very experienced kyuuji.

As I said: In general I'm satisfied, but some areas (see above) need adjustment with Simulation Controls -- on Elite controls they might not be a problem, because hitting shots on the run is more difficult there, as are shots from inside the baseline.

[djarvik]

I want to drive the point across again, I can make any pro play the way I want when controlled by AI. There is an actual "script" a "Play" if you will. You can modify that and tell AI how to behave.

That alone is the main point why AI cannot be "trusted". I can make Nadal SV on every point.


On other points - we don't disagree. Like I said, we are not there yet with all players. I just think that adjusting all as a group is not a good way. Lets keep adjustments to a few players at the time. Then analyze results and move forward. It is easier to swallow when you chew first.

I don't mind releasing the updates to the roster as many times as we see fit.

[eliomelma]

tomorrow i will play my quarter final match against Elias, my favourite sparring partner. i think that he is the second best player of the tour, and i am so curious to see tomorrow what kind of match will be. It will be easy for him or a battle as in our last training matches?
Elias what is your plan? my is to make you nervous with high top spin.....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Elias]

lol, davydenko is not the best choice for high top spins though i will send you some for sure

i've no plans really but play some solid baseline game with regularity here. i'm expecting a dificult match as well

@djarvik

i understand you point and also agree with your thoughts.
though i think that at least cpu vs cpu can bring some information, not absolute one for sure.

it makes an obvious difference that can be investigated for example if you see Federer winning like 6-0 6-1 vs some character, and losing or playing a very tight matchup vs another char wich has the same playstyle then the first one.

[eliomelma]

Is very strange that all matches have ended in 2 set

[L Sanchez MD]

Is very strange that all matches have ended in 2 set

I thought so too
I tried really hard for a 3rd set today, but it's impossible with the desyncs.

[eliomelma]

Lost 4-6 2-6 in quarter finals against Elias. first set was beautiful and i have 2 break points but i had a "little arm" and he win the points and go to 5-3. On 5-4 we went on 30-30 but he win take control and win the points. it seems to we will have a wonderful second set but i break him on 0-0 and on 1-1 but next i can't win my serve round because energies expenses for break him make my stamina low and my serve became inconsistent.i go out from the match at this point. I had 2 break points but i don't win the points. Unfortunate that on my break points he with wide serve hits aces 2 times , bacause of 2d visual that on wide serve you can't see your player. But it is not relevant. Elias was better today, i like play against him and every match i learn something form him. Congrats to him

FIRST SET eliomelma-elias 4-6
http://depositfiles.com/files/fzx2kv3bw

https://rapidshare.com/files/985960398/ ... as_4-6.dmo

SECOND SET 2-6 eliomelma-elias 2-6

http://depositfiles.com/files/gmwgccqek

https://rapidshare.com/files/1369983218 ... as_2-6.dmo

[Elias]

Well, i can't say we played a very good match. I think we were both too much nervous. Elio played more defensively than usual, lots of slices, tspins, and also some good attacks from time to time, especially on his serve games. This pushed me often to the fault and drove me nervous several times in the first set and i really had to calm down and restrain myself to attack too much, and be more patient.

I tried to mix a bit more with some short cross rallies and could then score sometimes some good accels straight down the line. I also used several drop shots, not always with succes, when ELio was standing a bit far behind the baseline. I think also our serve % made some difference, though Fed first is better than Davy one.

Also i took more the net in the second set wich helped significantly but when i broke in the seocond set Elio lost it a bit and didnt played as consistently as in the first set.

we played almost without any desynchs, using the precedent version, didnt tried the last one online yet.

[eliomelma]

Oh, i look the stats, in first set 0/5 break points won, and in both set my% of first set was so low! You say right friend, i played this match so scared, and not use all the great offensive potential of federer. But davydenko is too regular and both wings are too strong( for me them will be a bit lowered as nadal will be a bit powered)