Tourney point scheme an abstraction

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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby manutoo » Sat, 06 Apr 2013 12:28

Elias,
Well maybe you should grant a bit more trust to people playing loads of time online then. :wink:

I listen & trust your opinions (you = many people ;) ), but I can't fix a problem that I don't notice myself ; it'd be like shooting at ball-trap blindfolded, with 30 people yelling "up, down, left, right" ; it might be fun, but not much effective... :P

Thus it's not much surprising if our setup is now a bit more winner friendly than MG one.

Stat wise, maybe yup, but without the Danger Zone, it's much harder to be very effective in attack (except for some alien mutants ;) ), so right now, I think Fair/Elite is still more attack friendly (not exactly winner friendly, though, coz attacking often pushes the opponent to the fault, so there aren't too much winners & there are more faults).
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby C4iLL » Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:01

I think the video between Kyuuji and Robbin at US Open shows how the game was funnier by the past : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpRCvinM6Kg&hd=1

Just watch the point at 30-15 done by Kyuuji/Djokovic : with the current version of the game, this average cross short acceleration would have been easily caught by Robbin.
In 1.0E it was a winner, Robbin wasn't on the ball.

This is what we want, we're tired to play so many exchanges of 40 shots... In 1.0E, this kind of 40 shots exchanges were very less present.
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby manutoo » Sun, 07 Apr 2013 04:00

C4iLL,
I played (many months ago) ITST and saw the short accel not working, but when I play Fair/Elite (or Fair/Sim) the short accel is still working nicely...
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby Elias » Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:44

Well, i think we have to nuance our opinions anyway.

It's not like if we were facing a huge issue.

It's not like we're playing 40 shots rallies everytime either, far from it. It's just the expression of a frustration wich is mainly related to the 1.10 / 1.12 mod period, were we didn't decreased our speeds enough in time, it's coming better with 1.13, but can probably improve.

It's not either like cross accels "doesn't work", they work pretty well in 1.13, actually, probably better than with current MG settings (i played it the last 3 days), mostly on the strong wing side though, thanks to the average 85 consistency on this wing. Now it doesn't translates everytime to a winner or an opponent error, as our chars are also faster (thus have more acceleration as well).

The video of Ritchie/Cerji match @ Miami i posted today enlights this pretty well :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6qiNWnSzQQ&hd=1

ImageImage

As the stats does. You'll see plenty of crisp cross winners from Federer FH side there, noticeably less from Djokovic probably, though some nice cross passings. This gameplay is pretty close from what we could observe @ US Open 2012 with 1.0e/1.08. Also the rally distribution is pretty nice with 76/46/38, on Cement (very slightly slower surface compared to US Open).

It think like Vmoe said attack/defense issues are subtle.

Currently it's pretty match-up dependant. As i wrote above, there's usually not much issues when at least one of the characters involved is one of the well powered 80/82 speed characters (Federer,Wawrinka,Haas, etc).
It is character match-up dependant, but also player level dependant. Meaning some issues may likely arise when an average attacker meets an average defender, or two very good defenders, especially when both players picked some of our fastest chars (wich are usually not the more powerful), and an average defender may still upset a good (but not strong enough) attacker, wich can be frustrating.

I guess we may probably reach a better balance when we'll decrease our speeds a bit more (2-3%).

Also something to consider, besides TE changes from 1.0e to 1.0f+, it that we also changed our Precisions stats after 1.11. Precisions on average were globally lowered in 1.12, wich doesn't help aggressive play either.

If you take Djokovic / Federer Match-up, for instance,

Wings precision/consistencies were :

1.08 Djokovic : +10 / +5 (consistencies 89/88)
1.13 Djokovic : +1 / 0 (consistencies 87/75)

1.08 Federer : +15 / +7 (consistencies 84/66)
1.13 Federer : +6 / -5 (consistencies 87/75)

So we'll see but i think that lowering our speeds a little bit more, and maybe restoring some precision on the strong wing sides may probably help to promote agressive game (remember of your Gasquet backhand with higher precision C4iLL ?), though i guess we don't want going too far with it either, to avoid seeing an overhelming number of winners on the lines, so trying reasonable positive values in between 1.08 and 1.13 values may be interesting.
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby manutoo » Wed, 10 Apr 2013 03:30

Elias,
yup, I watched the 1st 5 games of the linked match, and I didn't see any major issue ; I saw a bunch of short accels, most of them either being winner or giving advantage in the rally, so I guess it's not that bad anymore...
After all, it looks like it just needed a "few" tweaks of the skills..! ;)
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby C4iLL » Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:53

I think you sum up everything Elias, the matchup at 2 levels explain some things (players behind the screen + characters chosen). The last issues are more a question of stats adjustement. But even if it may look good now, as you said, it can still be ameliorate to reward more the risk taken and the skill of the player.
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby VMoe86 » Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:54

manutoo wrote:Elias,
yup, I watched the 1st 5 games of the linked match, and I didn't see any major issue ; I saw a bunch of short accels, most of them either being winner or giving advantage in the rally, so I guess it's not that bad anymore...
After all, it looks like it just needed a "few" tweaks of the skills..! ;)

The only thing that is different to me in MG Tour setting is that someone standing far back makes more errors when trying to catch a short acceleration. That's related to Elite controls or the low consistencies (maximum 65% on BH and maximum 70% on FH). It would be nice to have this as well in our setting, but simply switching to Elite does not work well and we have higher consistencies allowing better Short Accelerations.

As an example, watch this point, where Cerji hits an inside out FH Short Acceleration and Richie is standing far back, barely touching the ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6qiNWnSzQQ&t=18m42s

In MG Tour setting a fault from Richie (pretty sure of it), here Cerji loses the point (also due to not being able to react correctly on the netcord ball).
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby C4iLL » Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:21

The shot of Cerji should have been a winner in my opinion
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Re: Tourney point scheme an abstraction

Postby manutoo » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 04:40

VMoe86,
yup, Richie's return would have been likely fault with Elite settings, as hitting the net shows it was already limit.
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