No Monster Defense allowed but Berserker yes?

[iOSTRON]

Hey all. New to the ITST. Played my first match after switching coaches when I was told Instant Rocket / Monster Defense is not allowed. Read further theads about it, but I have a question:

What exactly is the exploit in the Monster Defense that everyone gets in a huff about? Is it the fact that the player has a better ability to stay in the point or something like that? Because if they are not allowing The IR / MD player, why allow the Serve Stick Berserker who absolutely CRUSHES ace serves and can essentially outrun pretty much every single shot you throw at him. Seems to me, to allow the Berserker, you would allow the Monster Defense to combat that all out aggressive brutality - give players a fair shot against the Berserker.

[LeapedCastle04]

You won't find many Babb and Gallo players here, but on the WT..........
I know how frustrating it is to get aced all the time, when you know that in the rally you're far superior.

[jayb1988]

I still use Babb for WS and the coach with diesel server for MS because I've just always liked a big serve and its my strongest ability in the game, but most players are gravitating towards the instant rocket/crushing passing shot, not sure which coach it is.

The reason why I don't think berserker should be banned is that it only helps you on your serve, after that you're on your own. I think instant rocket is much more unfair personally, I really struggle to stay in matches against these players. I believe IR should be banned because no one can question that it elevates their player's abilities in matches without seemingly letting up, with deep powerful shots every hit really hard to defend against.

People will say IR doesn't make that much difference but its nonsense, I've played a guy who used it for one match and I got outplayed, then he played without it and I was competitive, you see what I'm getting at here? There's a reason why everyone is using IR at the moment and its killing the tour.

[JohnCurveo]

I agree with Jay. I just changed Babb to Rabari since 2 days, and is a great coach. I'm very surprised. I played him before, but i was not as skilled as i am now.
He's stronger than Babb, and he has a very good service, i think u can make at least 6-7 aces x match.
Babb is very powerful, but i become tired of him, it's a very special and difficult coach to manage. I was playing shit also.
So i don't see why Babb should be banned. Neuwirth and Rabari are more powerful.

[BrushedBigJJ]

What exactly is the exploit in the Monster Defense that everyone gets in a huff about? Is it the fact that the player has a better ability to stay in the point or something like that?

Because it messes with both players movement which is the key to the whole game. I wrote in two other threads about the auto positioning system...
viewtopic.php?f=1034&t=17131
viewtopic.php?f=1034&t=17138

2 things are accomplished when u do the auto positioning right:
1. You get super speed right after your opponent hits the ball
2. Your player "locks" on to the ball sooner instead of floating around

From my experience when I play those with monster defense when they trail my guy seems to lock on to the ball a split second later than normal. It also seems to help them lock onto the ball a split second sooner. And how well you hit the ball is partially related to how early you get to the ball. And that little alteration in the game allows the unskilled comeback to begin. That's why it's banned.

I believe IR should be banned because no one can question that it elevates their player's abilities in matches without seemingly letting up, with deep powerful shots every hit really hard to defend against.

People will say IR doesn't make that much difference but its nonsense, I've played a guy who used it for one match and I got outplayed, then he played without it and I was competitive, you see what I'm getting at here? There's a reason why everyone is using IR at the moment and its killing the tour.

I respectfully disagree Jay. Those deep hard continual shots you are referring to are easily counterable with control shots. I would never dream of pounding away flat power shots against a control shot player that knew what they were doing, I would get creamed.

And I use to use the Rabari set up and I only know of two others who still use it. So who are all these people using IR to dominate. Also in the WS China Open final I didn't use Rabari, but my opponent did and I faired just fine.

[jayb1988]

I believe IR should be banned because no one can question that it elevates their player's abilities in matches without seemingly letting up, with deep powerful shots every hit really hard to defend against.

People will say IR doesn't make that much difference but its nonsense, I've played a guy who used it for one match and I got outplayed, then he played without it and I was competitive, you see what I'm getting at here? There's a reason why everyone is using IR at the moment and its killing the tour.

I respectfully disagree Jay. Those deep hard continual shots you are referring to are easily counterable with control shots. I would never dream of pounding away flat power shots against a control shot player that knew what they were doing, I would get creamed.

And I use to use the Rabari set up and I only know of two others who still use it. So who are all these people using IR to dominate. Also in the WS China Open final I didn't use Rabari, but my opponent did and I faired just fine.

I'm pretty sure every top ten player aside from me in the WS Xbox tour is using it, and probably most on the MS side as well. I just played Swifty and its honestly like playing a glitched player, I can't see how so few people are noticing how it enhances player performance. The matches no longer feel competitive like they used to, I'm just facing a deluge of powerful, deep shots with seemingly no way to counter it, so I spend most of my time running from side to side while they hit ridiculous angles at will.

Show me a player who uses IR, then take that away and use any other coach and I assure you the performance level will drop dramatically, you've seen it for yourself when we did a similar test, you outplayed me with IR straight away then you took away the skill and its was close. I mean how can using power shots constantly not detract from the stamina bar also? Swifty got tired part way through the 2nd set but the bar went back to green pretty quickly and I had no answer.

It's an absolute joke and we may as well be playing the SIM tour as everyone is moving towards IR and crushing passing shot, so any other coach is made redundant and as far as I can tell its impossible to match up against these players, someone for the love of god tell me how any of this is fair?

[jayb1988]

I believe IR should be banned because no one can question that it elevates their player's abilities in matches without seemingly letting up, with deep powerful shots every hit really hard to defend against.

People will say IR doesn't make that much difference but its nonsense, I've played a guy who used it for one match and I got outplayed, then he played without it and I was competitive, you see what I'm getting at here? There's a reason why everyone is using IR at the moment and its killing the tour.

I respectfully disagree Jay. Those deep hard continual shots you are referring to are easily counterable with control shots. I would never dream of pounding away flat power shots against a control shot player that knew what they were doing, I would get creamed.

And I use to use the Rabari set up and I only know of two others who still use it. So who are all these people using IR to dominate. Also in the WS China Open final I didn't use Rabari, but my opponent did and I faired just fine.

I'm pretty sure every top ten player aside from me in the WS Xbox tour is using it, and probably most on the MS side as well. I just played Swifty and its honestly like playing a glitched player, I can't see how so few people are noticing how it enhances player performance. The matches no longer feel competitive like they used to, I'm just facing a deluge of powerful, deep shots with seemingly no way to counter it, so I spend most of my time running from side to side while they hit ridiculous angles at will.

Show me a player who uses IR, then take that away and use any other coach and I assure you the performance level will drop dramatically, you've seen it for yourself when we did a similar test, you outplayed me with IR straight away then you took away the skill and it was close. I mean how can using power shots constantly not detract from the stamina bar also? Swifty got tired part way through the 2nd set but the bar went back to green pretty quickly and I had no answer.

It's an absolute joke and we may as well be playing the SIM tour as everyone is moving towards IR and crushing passing shot, so any other coach is made redundant and as far as I can tell its impossible to match up against these players, someone for the love of god tell me how any of this is fair?

[swifty512]

Nothing wrong with Instant Rocket..You just have to be good at the game and then you can find a way to win. I have lost to people who dont use it so the skill doesnt make you great, its all down to the player - If you look at the top 10, im fairly certain that im the only one who uses it

[Airton111]

In my oppinion Instant rocket isnt a big advantage. I ve played with rabary and I felt uncomfortable, maybe because I dont like to do power shots. Jan Zajic is the best, on World Tour I felt unbeatable when I played with him ...

I ve never played with gallo, bab, net players and a lot more.. well maybe I am a defensive player haha.. in top spin 3 I Was defensive too haha that game Was really hard but really funny

[BrushedBigJJ]

I'm pretty sure every top ten player aside from me in the WS Xbox tour is using it, and probably most on the MS side as well. I just played Swifty and its honestly like playing a glitched player

Really? I ask again who are all these people in the ws year end final using instant rocket?

Show me a player who uses IR, then take that away and use any other coach and I assure you the performance level will drop dramatically, you've seen it for yourself when we did a similar test, you outplayed me with IR straight away then you took away the skill and it was close. I mean how can using power shots constantly not detract from the stamina bar also? Swifty got tired part way through the 2nd set but the bar went back to green pretty quickly and I had no answer.

First, after playing you yesterday I finally realized you dont like a high pace game, meaning you want both players to powder puff the ball to each other. I personally hate it. When Rabari gets in there he speeds up the game for both players because his instant rocket is easily counterable. You will always fair better against non-Rabari players because its easier for you to get into a low pace game.

Second, when you do constant flat power shots it takes big chunks out of your stamina, so if you can stay in a rally long enough they soon will have 0 for the rest of the rally.

And third, playing against your super serving babb is frustrating. I believe you had 11 aces against me. That's why people don't like Babb and have asked for it to be banned too. But neither will be banned so life goes on.

[jayb1988]

I'm pretty sure every top ten player aside from me in the WS Xbox tour is using it, and probably most on the MS side as well. I just played Swifty and its honestly like playing a glitched player

Really? I ask again who are all these people in the ws year end final using instant rocket?

Show me a player who uses IR, then take that away and use any other coach and I assure you the performance level will drop dramatically, you've seen it for yourself when we did a similar test, you outplayed me with IR straight away then you took away the skill and it was close. I mean how can using power shots constantly not detract from the stamina bar also? Swifty got tired part way through the 2nd set but the bar went back to green pretty quickly and I had no answer.

First, after playing you yesterday I finally realized you dont like a high pace game, meaning you want both players to powder puff the ball to each other. I personally hate it. When Rabari gets in there he speeds up the game for both players because his instant rocket is easily counterable. You will always fair better against non-Rabari players because its easier for you to get into a low pace game.

Second, when you do constant flat power shots it takes big chunks out of your stamina, so if you can stay in a rally long enough they soon will have 0 for the rest of the rally.

And third, playing against your super serving babb is frustrating. I believe you had 11 aces against me. That's why people don't like Babb and have asked for it to be banned too. But neither will be banned so life goes on.

Swifty, fij and chibz, Wdob (if he was playing), I havent played Bkristian for a while so can't really remember what his main set-up is but I'm sure you were instant rocket till you switched recently. I noticed the difference as well, in previous matches you overwhelmed me with that set-up but in yesterday's match the first set came down to the final one or two points, that's a proper competitive match which I felt could have gone either way rather than an endless battle with chasing down relentless power shots that I can't possibly win.

I don't know how much you can take from how I play from that match, it was really fun in parts when the lag wasnt there but when it was all I can really do is knock it back, but you may be right I suppose I do tend to wait for a chance to hit a winner after playing control shots but I think that's generally how a lot of people play, you seem quite different to anyone else in that even with average wings you still had me moving everywhere at the back of the court. I don't mind when a player beats me like that with pure skill as opposed to a skill I have no hope of competing against.

I think the stamina bar only drops at certain points for them and seems to pick up again, its very hard to get any kind of window against IR to do any damage, I hate it if you can't already tell haha. Maybe Babb has had its day and I need to look at different coaches as its no longer competitive against the top players after the rule changes lessened its potency, but serving is a skill as much as any other in the game, you still need a sense of accuracy whereas IR is just booming down shots and mashing buttons to let the skill do the work for you.

[BrushedBigJJ]

Wdob doesn't use it, he uses the silver 80 wings coach. I don't remember fij and chibz using it but it could be true. But in any event I rest my case, very few ws top players use that setup because it's not as dominant as you say. The overall score was competitive but within the score it was not because I had 1 or 2 aces but you only had one break chance which you did not convert. You completely relied on your babb serve to keep the score that close.

And no stamina bar does not recover in rallies, only after a point. Also babb is the easiest to ace with before and after the rule change, and for me I can't judge someone's serving skills unless they use something besides babb.

[jayb1988]

Wdob doesn't use it, he uses the silver 80 wings coach. I don't remember fij and chibz using it but it could be true. But in any event I rest my case, very few ws top players use that setup because it's not as dominant as you say. The overall score was competitive but within the score it was not because I had 1 or 2 aces but you only had one break chance which you did not convert. You completely relied on your babb serve to keep the score that close.

And no stamina bar does not recover in rallies, only after a point. Also babb is the easiest to ace with before and after the rule change, and for me I can't judge someone's serving skills unless they use something besides babb.

Well it doesn't really matter specifically who uses it I'm just saying that whoever does use it is gaining a raise in performances based on the skill that's all. All I know is the majority of players in MS and WS I come up against seem to be using it so there are a few out there. There's a clear difference in dominance from your IR player to the one you're using now, because you are now relying on pure ability rather than an overpowered skill.

When a tie-break ends at 12-10 you'd have to be quite short sighted to say that it wasn't a close match! That could have gone either way then who knows what would've happened. You sound incredibly arrogant, I've always been more than just a serve machine otherwise I wouldn't have won as many matches as I have, you can't rely on a serve only it just helps to keep you in the match, you still have to go out and win it in rallies and I've always been able to hold my own in them for the most part.

Well obviously Babb certainly helps you serve better but you still have to have a certain amount of ability to get as many aces as I do, I'm just using it to boost an ability that I already had, like someone with already good ground strokes would have high wings to make the most of that ability, people don't like Babb because its frustrating not being able to get the ball back in play and I get how that would get annoying.

[BrushedBigJJ]

There's a clear difference in dominance from your IR player to the one you're using now, because you are now relying on pure ability rather than an overpowered skill.

Yes I played with a character with 72 wings and 50 speed so yes it was a weaker character in general. But you have said over and over that instant rocket takes very little skill to wield which couldn't be farther from the truth. As a matter of fact I've gone toe to toe in power shot rallies with that character against high powered instant rocket players on the wt and I easily stay in the rally because I get in good position and time the ball well, nothing fancy.

When a tie-break ends at 12-10 you'd have to be quite short sighted to say that it wasn't a close match! That could have gone either way then who knows what would've happened. You sound incredibly arrogant, I've always been more than just a serve machine otherwise I wouldn't have won as many matches as I have, you can't rely on a serve only it just helps to keep you in the match, you still have to go out and win it in rallies and I've always been able to hold my own in them for the most part.

I never said the match wasn't competitive. I said within the score it was not competitive. In short I'm looking for how many points you won without your focus serve/serve berserk fs/sb.

In the first set tiebreak you won 1 point on my serve while I won 2 on yours, so out of 11 points with no fs/sb you won 1. In the 11 games that I served in the entire match you had only one break chance and maybe 2 dueces. So it's probably safe to say you won less than 20% of the points without fs/sb. In my opinion that is not competitive within the score and you are heavily relying on fs/sb. But the overall 7-6 6-4 match was very competitive.

It would be hard to analyze instant rocket point by point. But if someone is using instant rocket I would be looking to see how well they play defense and how well they do the ts4 short angle cross court because instant rocket can't help with those.

[Ivan G Dj]

But Instant Rocket is not allowed??? Ive readed the rules one more time and only is not allowed monster defence and smell of blood right?