Sh0Case v ILuvBillVal - Wimbledon Semi Final

[djarvik]

The previous update completely and definitely killed the game, and I'm sorry to say that but, you have your responsability in that Djarvik... ^^

Ever heard of expression "the horse that pulls gets whipped"?

Each and every update was done because of players requests and their feedback, not my personal desire. The only thing I am "responsible" for is looking out for your interests with 2K. Thank you for recognizing it.

@JohnCurveo - Rules? When we didn't have rules? And you are totally wrong about the numbers there. Both, PS3 and Xbox numbers are slashed to one third of what it was, even less. The first 6 month of the game Xbox online players number was hovering at 1100-1300 members. Now, around 200-300, on some days even less. Same with PS3. There is a sharp lost of interest, myself and many others who expressed themselves here included. You are looking at something white - and calling it black. Not trying to take your opinion away, just dramatizing.

@Ali-Iqb93 - I wont argue about the game itself with you, you sucked at TS3 and you are good in TS4, your defense is understandable. The thing I want to say is that ITST popularity grew not because of TS4, rather despite it. We have done a LOT to bring more players here, you have no idea the amount of hours we spent to use this release to establish us better in the gaming world, which we did. We have not done so much marketing for other games. That explains sign-ups and more players. That and the fact that TS4 was marketed more by 2K, and the fact that there are way more consoles now then 6 years ago...along with other factors.


BTW - to me control shots is small part of the problem. They are not new, I used them in TS3 all the time. The problems are:

- No way to risk = no tennis. Tennis is a game of calculated risks, we can't take any in TS4, we forced to play out scripted rallies. THE biggest problem with the game.

- Movement. Taking away the element of positioning your player sure invites a lot of new players to the game, after all, they can swing at the ball and make contact every time. Less skill is required to move and to hit shots. Does no one sees this as a big problem? Why would you want the AI to move your player??? Aren't you interested in PLAYING rather then OBSERVING?

- Angles of the shots. Especially Flat. Now, remember, THERE IS NO RISK element, hence all these short cross court rallies. In TS3 or any other tennis game, hitting such an angle is a MAJOR risk. You simply cannot do 10 of them in a raw, in TS4, if both players anticipate cross, even if they have no clue how to move in the game or play it properly, they can just stand there and exchange the most magical cross court shots. Sure its FUN! ...after all, just a second ago you had no clue what to do - and now you are hitting Federer like cross courts.

There are other minor things, but this is the major ones. And I can produce the same list for TS3. So I am not saying its a perfect game etc.... I am saying it is a "Pro" version of TS4, a more complicated and deep version. A version that I envision is what ITST is all about, complexity, depth, real strategy that involves holding serve by virtue of serving, without having big power and serve stat, but because you are placing it and varying it. Hitting a all-or-nothing shot, such a fundamental part of tennis, "when stretched too far of the court - your only option is all-or-nothing shot".

I won't lie, I have promoted TS4 here and said a lot of good thing about it, I am not going to take them back. It is a good game, just not something we at ITST are looking for. The depth, just not there. The pendulum swung too far from SIM to Arcade, it basically is a VT game with elements of TS3. And I loved VT3, because it didn't try to hide anything, it came as a glorified Ping Pong and it was fun. (for about a year)

If I am going to be involved in making TS5, you can bet on risk making a comeback.


I beg anyone who have not tried TS3, to pick up a copy. It should cost you now around 3-5$ or even less. After having played TS4, you will be well used to mechanics of the game, all the shots are done the same and serve as well. What you will notice is different, is that TS3 has more options, it is more complex, you have separate buttons for repositioning and coming forward to net, you have two types of risk buttons, one adds more power, the other precision. You can use both at the same time as well. You will see that you have to actually use the left stick for moving, before you can start aiming, sometimes, you will have a split second to aim, other times you will give up aiming for the sake of reaching the ball. If opponent hits a short top spin shot, that lands on the service line, and your player is at the baseline - you wont lock into hitting position, you will have to first take steps forward. There is just so much more to that game, so much more of PLAYING and so much less of making a single choice and OBSERVING.

It is hard to find a Tennis Fan that understands how the game played, that will say that TS4 is anything close to real thing. It's just not. It SURE looks like it, and that is why Casual fans and players love it. Cause it looks like something they see on TV, they are less concerned with intricacies of the execution and more in awe of what they see happening. You never see these players play DMT or TE, because the "Awe factor" is lessen to none in these games, while the control and feeling is way higher.

Same as rackets. The casual players play with a big powerful 100-120 inch frame. They are more concerned about making contact with the ball then anything else. While the more avid players, try and find rackets that give them feel of the game, of the ball. That give them control, so that can play a game on a different level. In terms of fun - both groups have it. So the argument is not about the fun factor, rather depth.

Just like they say in real tennis - "the Pros and the Recreational players play a different game. It only looks similar."

Sorry for the wall of text. Promise, this will be a last one on the subject.

[Ali-Iqb93]

Well you re wrong. I didn't suck in top spin 3. In that way I would say the same that your defense is understandable about ts3. You were no 1 I guess on both consoles and sucked in ts4. You miss the rivalaries you had in ts3 soo your defense is understandable.

If you re up for it i challenge you to play a game or so with me in ts3. I might Lose but I ll show you atleast that I didn't suck in ts3.

[ydderFx]

Of course topspin 4 had more signups.. You had all the topspin 3 fans dribbling out of their mouths at a new game in the series. You then had all the people that were new to the game and heard of ITST through word of mouth. Topspin 3 came out just over a year and few months since the PS3 was released and not many people had Playstations due to the high price. Topspin 4 came out 5 years after the PS3 was released, the price of the PS3 has greatly fell and thus more sales increased thus more people able to buy the game. Now all of that is common sense.

[djarvik]

Well you re wrong. I didn't suck in top spin 3. In that way I would say the same that your defense is understandable about ts3. You were no 1 I guess on both consoles and sucked in ts4. You miss the rivalaries you had in ts3 soo your defense is understandable.

If you re up for it i challenge you to play a game or so with me in ts3. I might Lose but I ll show you atleast that I didn't suck in ts3.

Yes, you sucked. Sorry, but your record shows you sucked. The friendlies are not a good sample data. I am not saying it to offend you, don't be scared by the word "suck". I suck at a lot of things.

I did pretty well in TS4 as well. I started slow in TS3, very slow. I started winning a year after the game. And when I came to PS3 I was a top 10 on Xbox, this was my break. The big difference, is that despite losing at TS3 for a year, I still had the desire to play and had the feeling. With TS4, it was gone in less then a year. If I would continue, I would be just as good as I was in TS4. I have a decent record in TS4 if you look on Xbox, considering I invested 1/10 of time into learning the game.

So you can say I was rather good in both games, so my opinion comes from being good at both.

Anyway, I know you just here to disagree with me, so go on, do that.


EDIT: Forgot to add, I was NEVER number 1 on Xbox. Never reached #5 either, I was barely inside the TOP 10. PS3 level was WAY lower then Xbox, with my arrival, I raised the level and paved the way for other guys. I was dominant, no doubt, but after about 6 month, I could not touch the top guys anymore. I still played the game.

[djarvik]

Of course topspin 4 had more signups.. You had all the topspin 3 fans dribbling out of their mouths at a new game in the series.

Excellent point! Remember TS2? TS3 had to follow up THAT game. While TS4 build on a 3 year success by TS3.

Didn't even think about that angle

[C4iLL]

I exagerate Djarvik, I admit.

Anyway, I'd like to point out the fact that there wasn't a majority of people that wanted more angle for their cross shots, more efficient control shots, an anhiliation of the powershot style and of the SV style.

People just wanted to make the stamina more present (which was done with that update, and was a good thing) and the actual speed more representative of the speed stats. Nothing more in my mind...

Off course some guys complain about the fact that winners were harder to hit... But that wasn't a majority.
The previous update was actually pretty good : the game was more dynamic and funny to play, matches were close and clearly more variated than today.
Now it's slow as the real tennis of the 80s, all the exchanges are the same, it became completely boring.

So in fact I never understand why a new update has come...

Anyway, your analysis about what is TS4 is right (I've read it entirely).

[djarvik]

I know C4iLL I know what you meant, just wanted to make a "smart-ass" remark.

BTW - the updates for TS4 never called for tghese things. Problem with balancing, any tennis game, is when you change one things - 10 more get affected. When the core engine is flawed, it is near impossible to balance out.

You say you liked the game in previous update, Ali liked in Raw, some like it now, some after update #1,2,3.

There is no way to please everyone, but just the mere factor that complaints about game-play WAS THE HOTTEST TOPIC here at ITST since day one tells us a lot. Even after all the attempts to balance out - we still have the complaints. The greatest Balancing Act is just not there, THE RISK. There is no risking in taking RISKY SHOTS. A PARADOX!

Anyway, here are my notes from final update:

- Shots in good situations have been improved.
Shots played in good situations are more precise, making them more efficient, especially when hit with good timings.

- Bad and average drop shots are less efficient.
Bad and average drop shots now land further from the net and with higher bounce, making them easier to attack.

- Shots in defensive situations have been slightly reworked.
Slice shots played in bad and medium situations are less powerful and less precise, making them real defensive shots and not offensive weapons. Flat shots in difficult situations can be returned with slightly more power, making it easier to defend against power players.

- Players with a higher stamina will last longer before being tired.
These players only get tired after a really long and exhausting rally, thus creating a bigger difference between low and high stamina players.

- Tired and low speed players are slower.
Tired players and players with a low Speed attribute are a bit slower, making it more difficult for them to reach difficult balls far from them.

- Returns with a bad timing are less efficient.
Returns aimed long with a bad timing land closer to the net, making it easier for the server to attack the ball and play inside the court.

[Ali-Iqb93]

If there's risk in top spin 5 then it should be strong enough to put your opponent off balance but it should not be a weapon to kill the rallies

[djarvik]

If there's risk in top spin 5 then it should be strong enough to put your opponent off balance but it should not be a weapon to kill the rallies

Why? If I want to go for a Winner it should not be a Winner?

I do agree that there are better ways to implement risk. But Risk is a risk, If hit it with intent to get a winner - then I should get that winner. The LT risk was the placement risk, and what you are talking about. Using it rarely results in Winners, but it does have the potential to put your opponent off balance.

I would make the risks harder to hit for sure. After about a year, all I was doing is hitting LT risks. 99% of the time. RT was harder. So making it more complicated will lead to more Regular shots....slightly longer rallies. Although I do remember getting it 20-30 shot rallies with Norberto and Iluv - Risk on Risk. That was something.

[C4iLL]

If there's risk in top spin 5 then it should be strong enough to put your opponent off balance but it should not be a weapon to kill the rallies

Dude don't misunderstand the conception of risk. The risk must be found in the freedom of movement and aim : you want to hit the line, okay try to aim it. If you're good, you gonna hit the line 100% of the time in a good day.

If you're in a bad day, you can do 20 faults. That's how tennis is in ral life, and how every tennis game should be (and that's what Tennis Elbow offers : you want to hit the public, you can, there's 100% freedom in the shots and the aim).

[Ali-Iqb93]

I always used both L2 and R2 so I hardly got rallies with anyone. Every point was I served big and next shot was a winner

[djarvik]

Your opponent sucked at returning. A good LT return neutralizes the 1-2 punch.

[ydderFx]

Your opponent sucked at returning. A good LT return neutralizes the 1-2 punch.

Yes a well timed L2 + topspin is great, only if its in though. I serve + volley so its not a bad return for someone like me haha.

[Sh0Case]

I definitely agree with Djarvik's breakdown of the flaws in TS4. When I first played the game I would make slight movements with my player trying to be in the perfect position but realised the game doesn't work like that, you don't control your player so you don't get penalised for a lack of anticipation etc.

I was also confused by the way I could direct my shot from early and hold it for as long as possible and still hit the line.

I play this game because it's on a console TBH, I would rather play TE as it's clearly a better game.

[ydderFx]

I definitely agree with Djarvik's breakdown of the flaws in TS4. When I first played the game I would make slight movements with my player trying to be in the perfect position but realised the game doesn't work like that, you don't control your player so you don't get penalised for a lack of anticipation etc.

I was also confused by the way I could direct my shot from early and hold it for as long as possible and still hit the line.

I play this game because it's on a console TBH, I would rather play TE as it's clearly a better game.

Yes, I am joining this tour. I've played the demo with the ITST patch (didn't even know you could do that until I tried) I have a gaming computer which I built for £1100 so I guess I'm lucky This game is probably the best simulated tennis on any console or pc. You could argue that DMT is better, I've only played that once so I can't argue.