All coaches allowed?

[BluudyEEfingaz]

With the dying number of TS4 players...shouldn't those who remain faithful to the game be allowed to use any provided coach with the same rule modifications?

[ICEMAN_9588]

To me, it's never been a problem using all coaches.
But i'd change just one thing in the setups, too.

Rules say you must have only one grey stat, and it's ok, but I don't understand why it should be not less than 42 points.
What's the matter if I want to have a 38 volley?

I'm just saying anyway, it's a minor "problem".

PS I voted for option 3

[Marco_Theo_81]

Ueilá Iceman
Perbaccolina, non ricordo il tuo nome...

Da un pó non ci si vede!
Buon anno!!

[BrushedBigJJ]

Rules say you must have only one grey stat, and it's ok, but I don't understand why it should be not less than 42 points. What's the matter if I want to have a 38 volley?

Because it forced virtually every non serve volley player to take a point off offensive baseline or defensive baseline which helps balance the players.

And I didn't vote because the option I would have voted for isn't there. "Keep the banned coaches banned, but make exceptions for the setup choices(mainly s&v and extreme defense) that got squeezed out with the one grey stat and minimum of 42."

If you unban monster defense and smell of blood the different amount of setups used now will greatly decrease. From my view I constantly use different setups and most opponents use different setups. And that would change quite quickly if you unban monster defense and smell of blood even with the setup modification rules still in place.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Because it forced virtually every non serve volley player to take a point off offensive baseline or defensive baseline which helps balance the players.

Ok but seriously...how much can a setup change if you have 74 or 75 forehand (for example)?

I didn't vote because the option I would have voted for isn't there. "Keep the banned coaches banned, but make exceptions for the setup choices(mainly s&v and extreme defense) that got squeezed out with the one grey stat and minimum of 42."

That would be a possible solution.

If you unban monster defense and smell of blood the different amount of setups used now will greatly decrease. From my view I constantly use different setups and most opponents use different setups. And that would change quite quickly if you unban monster defense and smell of blood even with the setup modification rules still in place.

Well, I cannot agree when you talk about "great amount of setups used now". Like the other users said before me, most part of users (me included) has only 3 or 4 setups, or better, 3 or 4 coaches. Rabari, Babb and Neuwirth are the most preferred coaches in ITST.
Sometimes I see people with Bickham, or people with Slavina (cause he guarantees a 92 speed, which is more than a Samala player, and this setup completely "bypasses" the current rules...my next opponent in Doha uses him, and I have no idea how to face it XD), Tomas Madr and Stevan Boskovic are other coaches that someone uses.

But these are isolated examples, people use that 3 coaches I listed before. Just like most part of World Tour players uses Gallo (with 100 power, me included), Babb, Samala and Welch.
Then, adn only then, come Rabari and Neuwirth.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Ueilá Iceman
Perbaccolina, non ricordo il tuo nome...

Da un pó non ci si vede!
Buon anno!!

Marco, amico mio, come stai? Buon anno anche a te!
Ancora complimenti per il tuo italiano (anche se nella tua firma si scrive "Grande Roger, IL numero uno al mondo" ).

PS Il mio nome è Alessandro comunque

[Marco_Theo_81]

corretto....

buona fortuna per il 2013 nella TS4 tour, sei hai voglia di provare TE fammi sapere!

alla prossima Alessandro

[BrushedBigJJ]

Ok but seriously...how much can a setup change if you have 74 or 75 forehand (for example)?

Sometimes I see people with Bickham, or people with Slavina (cause he guarantees a 92 speed, which is more than a Samala player, and this setup completely "bypasses" the current rules...my next opponent in Doha uses him, and I have no idea how to face it XD), Tomas Madr and Stevan Boskovic are other coaches that someone uses.

Those rules weren't meant to go after small fish like adjusting backhands from 75 to 74. It was meant to go after the big fish like getting 100 power down to 92 and 100 speed to 92 speed. And it got the 98/98 serve power to around 90/90. Slavania doesn't by pass the rule it is weakend by it. Without the rules you would be facing 100 speed with 81 wings. With the rules he is 92 speed with 79 wings. Which setup would you rather face? The non extreme setups got small adjustments everywhere while the extreme setups were given a big hit on their best stat and a few minor adjustments.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Ok but seriously...how much can a setup change if you have 74 or 75 forehand (for example)?

Sometimes I see people with Bickham, or people with Slavina (cause he guarantees a 92 speed, which is more than a Samala player, and this setup completely "bypasses" the current rules...my next opponent in Doha uses him, and I have no idea how to face it XD), Tomas Madr and Stevan Boskovic are other coaches that someone uses.

Those rules weren't meant to go after small fish like adjusting backhands from 75 to 74. It was meant to go after the big fish like getting 100 power down to 92 and 100 speed to 92 speed. And it got the 98/98 serve power to around 90/90. Slavania doesn't by pass the rule it is weakend by it. Without the rules you would be facing 100 speed with 81 wings. With the rules he is 92 speed with 79 wings. Which setup would you rather face? The non extreme setups got small adjustments everywhere while the extreme setups were given a big hit on their best stat and a few minor adjustments.

Power and defense cannot be estimated with same criterions.
If you are just a little bit good using control shots, speed 55-60 is enough to handle a 100 power player.
I've just verified that by myself in World Tour. I'm trying a Neuwirth player, 0-15-5, 59 speed. Never, and I mean never lost against a 100 power player, even very good users.
And I can taste the difference cause when I faced same guys with my power player, sometimes I lost. With Neuwirth player, not only I've always won, but I was never been in big trouble during my matches.

So to me, 92 speed is not like 92 power. Not at all.
In TS4 speed "beats" power. When you find a good guy using defensive players, a power player will be defeated. Not only, but when you find a good guy using shot-counter players (which are NOT defensive), a power player will be defeated.

Of course, as I said before, users make difference. I'm not talking about a whichever 92 speed player, I'm talking about a 92 speed player used by a great user.
For example like Lauchas, which I've just faced in ITST (Doha): I lost 60 60 cause the combination extreme defensive player + good user is lethal for me.
I'm a pretty good user, I've had my wins in WT, I'm trying to improve my control shot play (because that is what ITST is now all about), but setups had its influence in our match.

I'm quite sure I'd probably lost anyway, cause Lauchas is really good. As good as I'm quite sure I'd probably lost with a closest score.

PS When you say "one grey stat", you implicitly ban 100 power players, cause they have 40 volley and 43 speed, 2 grey stats.
Same thing with Samala players with 0-0-20 setup (45 serve, 40 volley).

[BrushedBigJJ]

Yes iceman setups always do influence matches, even if its just a little. Now if lauchas is a human backboard with 92 speed, imagine him with 100 speed. It would be that much worse.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Yes iceman setups always do influence matches, even if its just a little. Now if lauchas is a human backboard with 92 speed, imagine him with 100 speed. It would be that much worse.

The point is that it makes no differences to me. I mean, he is really really good no matter of speed (92 or 100). Setups influence the match but to me, nothing can count more than users' skills.
I faced Lauchas in WT a few days ago, Amsterdam final. I was playing with my usual power player (100 power), and I lost 4-3, 3-0.
Closer score, same result.

And that can be considered almost as a proof of two things I said before.
1. Speed is better than power in WT (I used a 100 power player, he used a 92 speed player)
2. Setups can have influence in a match, yes. But users make the major difference, no doubt about it (of course I've just defeated other super-fast players before, even with 100 speed. I'm not saying it after only one loss).

The conclusion is simple: setup doesn't matter. Lauchas, at the moment, is better than me, in general.
Which is not a problem, but it's funny to my when I read comments like "guys using 100 power or Samala and Welch are cheater"...
And that', in a few words, is the reason why we have this rules now. Which is a big lie, a great misunderstanding.

[BrushedBigJJ]

1. Speed is better than power in WT (I used a 100 power player, he used a 92 speed player)

That's not always the case. Speed matters a lot when the auto position rarely kicks in. But if its constantly kicking in 40 speed players can move like nadal because your speed stat makes little difference when auto position is working. And it's not speed that trumps power, it's control shots. Would you rather play a a slavania with 150 speed but can only use power shots, or a regular slavania? The 150 speed wouldn't scare me if I know they only had power shots.

The conclusion is simple: setup doesn't matter. Lauchas, at the moment, is better than me, in general.
Which is not a problem, but it's funny to my when I read comments like "guys using 100 power or Samala and Welch are cheater"...
And that', in a few words, is the reason why we have this rules now. Which is a big lie, a great misunderstanding.

Well I disagree. The rules are there to balance the setups. If 92 power isn't enough for someone to power the ball by someone or if 92 speed isn't enough for someone to run a ton of balls down the problem lies with the user.

[ICEMAN_9588]

That's not always the case. Speed matters a lot when the auto position rarely kicks in. But if its constantly kicking in 40 speed players can move like nadal because your speed stat makes little difference when auto position is working. And it's not speed that trumps power, it's control shots. Would you rather play a a slavania with 150 speed but can only use power shots, or a regular slavania? The 150 speed wouldn't scare me if I know they only had power shots.

Firs of all, I was talking in general about speed and power (after all, in WT I use a 100 power player myself).
I said before, If you are even just a little bit good using control shots, you can handle a power player without problems.
I don't know how ITST used to work before the introduction of these rules, but I think I undertstood how it's working now that I've joined the tour.
It's all about who's better using control shots. It's not a bad thing, just an objective statement.

Well I disagree. The rules are there to balance the setups. If 92 power isn't enough for someone to power the ball by someone or if 92 speed isn't enough for someone to run a ton of balls down the problem lies with the user.

Well, I have to disagree again.
I said that you can easily handle a 100 power player with an "unoverstated" speed (55-60, or even less, it's fair enough). The point, as you rightly said, is control shots.

So, if it's quite possible face super-powered players with an average speed, think about what it could be done with great speed (and the right setup): I'm talking about 70-75, not 85-90 like with Samala or Slavina.
But now, considering all the things I've just said, we got to ask ourselves the opposite question: with an average power, for example 80-85 (Rabari, or even Neuwirth can give you that), can you handle a player with more than 90 speed?

And be careful, I'm not talking about users skills. Consider to play against yourself: you use an 80-85 power player, your "opponent" uses a 90 speed player.
You think you can win?

PS Of course, I'm not saying all these things about power, speed and control shots just for say something, but cause I've tested them in World Tour (and WT doesn't submit to ITST rules).
I'm not so good using control shot, and yet I've defeated 100 power players without any problem with a shot-counter player.
But I struggle a lot when I face extreme defensive players, even against users that I'm used to easily defeat with my 100 power player.

That's why I came to these conclusions.
You can or can't agree, of course. But I'm pretty sure that IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT, speed is greater than power in TS4 (considering the control shots technique).

[ICEMAN_9588]

Oh, and I almost forgot it.
You talked about balance.

Well, a player with 17 points out of 20 on "offensive baseline" or "defensive baseline" is not balanced. It's almost a lexical paradox

A player with 92 speed and 52 serve (40 points!) is not balanced at all.
And of course, a player with 51 speed and 84 serve (33 points) is not so balanced, even if you can notice by yourself that the difference is less emphasized.

Ok stop now.
If I'd go on, I could write a paper about this matter

[BluudyEEfingaz]

Yeah...I agree...the mods shouldn't be specific attributes or skills but divided into the three main focal points...S&V...OFF and DEF...allowing no number to exceed 9 or to be less than 4. This is balance...then any coach should be accessible .