Regular Tour Rule Suggestion #3

[Ali-Iqb93]

Lol yea i dont know why don't they try some new ideas for sim tour.. The number of sign ups are already decreasing for sim tour.. And sim matches are slow and boring like 1960s tennis and yeas I have stopped complaining about welch too. If I can take a welch player to 3tough sets then I can also destroy them when they will use non-welch setups..Guess wat I already feel I m improving against welch guys but still it's annoying to play them. Every welch guy uses the same tactics of short crosses and when you are about to win a point they start hitting high moon balls on defense and nothing else. And welch guys with low service can still serve at 193km/h. I m sick of losing to welch in most of the tournaments. As I see it itst staff thinks that if they ban welch they will lose the number of sign ups. But IMO it will open the doors to even more comparative tour. But no need to complain Dennie because still we won't get any reply. Correct me if I m wrong but I think most of the staff members like djarvik, rob, don't even play itst or ts4 anymore.

[djarvik]

We went from complaining in every post to complaining then saying "I stopped complaining already"

really?

[Rob ITST]

As I see it itst staff thinks that if they ban welch they will lose the number of sign ups.

No, that's not the issue. Generally, we try to avoid rules. I'm going off subject here a bit, but here's why I hate restrictions:

Of course I like to see fair play, balanced games, etc,.... but there's one thing that is very important to me - that the best ITST players are better than any other players. To be #1 here should mean you are the real #1 - not WT #1, which usually means shit. This is a competition after all. When you start making restrictions, you have changed the game, and you could argue that being the best in ITST just means you are the best with our rules. Being the best at a game means being to beat anyone, no matter what coach or tactics they use (which is one reason I like to play WT, because I want to make sure I can beat people even if they use "cheese" - and I'm always good at beating cheesers).

Back on topic.

@Dennie:

If you want to test your rule, just do as I said before. Get a few guys together, and make some characters with your rule. Use them against each other. Switch them up - if you used Welch with 91 speed and your opponent used Babb with 91 power, then trade and see if you get a similar result. Use them against other coaches (coaches that are not affected by the rule) and see if they seem equally matched. Test them against un-restricted Welch and Babb setups, and make sure there really is a difference.

The more matches you play, with different characters and against different opponents, the better.

That all I want to see. Actually playing matches with these rules, and post the results. Just telling me "trust me, I know the game" isn't enough.

Oh, and by the way, I play TS4 almost every single day. Plenty of people here can tell you that. My work schedule just doesn't allow me to play ITST tournaments anymore (I work about 50 hours a week, and during the times that most Europeans are available to play). I know WT is not as good as ITST, but I rarely lose, and I'm not bothered by any coaches - imo, they all have weaknesses that can be exploited - trust me, I know the game.

What ideas do you have in mind for the sim tour? Personally, I've never been a big fan of sim on TS4. I find the exact same thing you described - it's the same game, but slower and boring. TS3 worked better, mostly because you could use skill (risk shots) to overcome the weaknesses of the lower stats; on TS1, it was an entirely different game (we never had a TS2 sim tour). There's not much else you could do on TS4 sim, imo. I'd rather just go with a pro-player tour than tweak the sim roster.

[djarvik]

Everyone wants to theorize Rob, but not do. Things are being taken for granted, "oh, this is what you do, trust me, now go do it". This is what ticks me off the most. I think it is great that we discuss stuff on the forum, but unless someone is willing to put in the hours and their time to test stuff out - it is not going to work, and to blame management for not spending their own time on every idea being coughed up is just low.

Rob said it. I play TS4 as well and I am rather good too. I really have no issues with all the setups mentioned.

SIM is definitely not as fun as in TS3. And it is never going to be. Redoing setups will only make it closer to the normal tour. Making them even less powerful by using bronze coaches etc... will only set it more back. Lack of risk kinda kills the SIM.

I am rather sure that Pro tour will have its own issues, and many of them....but we can always hide behind the fact that we cannot adjust or ban players

[Ali-Iqb93]

Ban the control shots of welch.. No one who use welch should be allowed to hit cross court control shots.. this will make everyone happy

[Rob ITST]

Welch's angles actually don't bother me at all. If you anticipate them, you have a ton of options open. My big problem with Welch is the pace of his shots - they are SOOOO slow that I have trouble timing them.

[Tamthewasp]

I gave some feedback on a few weeks ago. On a few different babb setups.

Exactly Rob it's more the pace that is hard 2 time these slow shots.

I would do more welch testing but I refuse 2 use him. Anyway some1 more advanced with Welch can do welch testing.

I don't see a BABB problem but many do so it's 6 and 1 and half a dozen of the other.

[DennieFR1908]

Being the best at a game means being to beat anyone, no matter what coach or tactics they use (which is one reason I like to play WT, because I want to make sure I can beat people even if they use "cheese"

I disagree on this man. I think being the best in ITST should be about the skills you have, not being able to cheese your way to the top. I don't care if people think I am not the best of all when I'm nr 1 on ITST with these restrictions, we all know better because level differences on ITST and WT are huge. The most important thing about the tour should be that it´s fun and challanging, and these cheese setups are not that.

If you want to test your rule, just do as I said before. Get a few guys together, and make some characters with your rule. Use them against each other. Switch them up - if you used Welch with 91 speed and your opponent used Babb with 91 power, then trade and see if you get a similar result. Use them against other coaches (coaches that are not affected by the rule) and see if they seem equally matched. Test them against un-restricted Welch and Babb setups, and make sure there really is a difference.

I want to make my point clearer about this.. I'm stroggling to be clear in English, but I'm trying my best. What I talk about does in my opinion not has to be tested (exept how high power restriction could be, and what you can do with 0-0-20 Slavina), reason is simple, it's being tested all the time. All the people playing with Welch, and my WT experiences against superhigh power players made me things clear. With Welches corners and the 98 power you can avoid certain rules this game has by extreme control and power shots, which enables you to make cheep easy points all the time. People on ITST using Welch and people using 98 power on WT do this for one simple reason. Getting easy points. With these setups, you don't have to build up your point. A top player with Welch against a top player with another setup just has to keep the ball deep, waiting untill his opponents lower wings break and plays a shorter ball, and finish it off short cross. Powerplayers on WT is the same thing, Just keep hitting powershots untill your opponent breaks. So simple and effective. I don´t have any trouble with a Babb setup or or any other, I only have trouble with 2 things, Extreme Control Shots and Extreme Power Shots, Cheese skills, not fun, not realistic, annoying way of play, I've heard this SO MANY TIMES, people are even protesting by taking Welch untill he is banned.. These things will be excluded when you restrict/ban these things.

Welch's angles actually don't bother me at all. If you anticipate them, you have a ton of options open. My big problem with Welch is the pace of his shots - they are SOOOO slow that I have trouble timing them.

But like you said, you only play WT. There is no resembling between a WT Welch and a good ITST Welch. Welches on ITST are better but most important change is that with ITST matches you have a shot marker. Welch people can see where the ball goes and know exactly when to press the control shots, they also have a very big timing window so it's quite easy to do. Difference is huge. Welch on WT is actually pretty useless. Most important reason no short marker, so there super strong CS are alot harder to execute without shot marker, you can´t build the routine to always press at the right moment (or at least it´s alot harder). Please believe me the corners Welch can make are just to impossible and to crazy I'm sure you would be bothered too if you'd experience it. (like so many of us)

What ideas do you have in mind for the sim tour?

The way I see the game, I think I have a great idea for the sim tour. What djarvik sais isn´t true, it would be nothing like regular tour if you use gold coaches for sim. Instead of give all your levels to the points to optimize the most important stats like power and wings, you can also increase players volley, and reflexes etc. It will add alot more dept to the game, things you didn´t see before.

I have played matches with these setups and I must say, it was a new experience to me, I liked it so much that I just want other people to experience it to, it was sooo much more fun then the current SIM, or REG tour. You can play with your own playstyle. Mine is All Around Baseliner, in REG tour that's not possible unbalanced and on SIM tour I see allround baseliners with 52 BH etc, they searched for weaknesses in the wrong way, instead of a super low backhand the weakness of an AB should be the same as his strength, no superhigh stats, but also very little low stats, while DB and OB are more "specialized".

I worked this idea out once since we wanted to test a "practice tour" with these setups, but ITST didn't allow it on our forums. On the SIM tour I have in mind, there should be used mainly Gold coaches. All evinely strong setups. To start with 4 of each playstyle, 16 in total. And all of them gotta have it´s own strengths, and special skills suitable for there playstyles (All around players with for example shot counter, defensive baseliners with reach swings etc.) All around baseliners have little weaknesses, but also no big strengths, while DB have big stamina, speed and wings, and OB who has big serve and power, but in general are slower then other playstyles. I´ve been building from these principles and got to very attractive looking setups. I'm sure people would love it, only trouble is the tours are shrinking and people are getting annoyed by some things in TS. That's what I mean, I think that Welch issue which makes averyone take that setup or quit, and the SIM tour which is however you want to tell it not challanging enough are just not good for ITST and I've got the feeling the things I have in mind can really help.. TS4 needs new challange!

Here's the example of that tour I developped. Tell me if there is 1 setup which you wouldn't like to try out, or if there is no setup you feel related to with your real life style, or if you think it won't be balancem, even the S&V players are competitive. When I look at this there are about 5/6 setups I like to try. (not all the lvl's are correct yet though)

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15 ... inish.jpg/

I'd rather just go with a pro-player tour than tweak the sim roster.

I voted "yes" for a pro tour, but only because I don't like the current SIM tour and I like to play another tour next to MS. Like djarvik also mentioned Pro tour will likely has his own isues, if the SIM would be tweaked my way I would definetely want that more.

Things are being taken for granted, "oh, this is what you do, trust me, now go do it". This is what ticks me off the most. I think it is great that we discuss stuff on the forum, but unless someone is willing to put in the hours and their time to test stuff out - it is not going to work, and to blame management for not spending their own time on every idea being coughed up is just low.

I'm not taking anything for granted man, I never said do this trust me and just do it. I've recalled numurous of reasons. And I'm willing to spend hours, no prob, I'll make time but I don't need to test if Welch is overpowerd because I know so. Only thing I could test is how high power restricting should be, and how easy short crosses with 0-0-20 Slavina are, but I can't think of more then that. I also think it's a little strange that we should test it, not because I think you should do it but I just wonder how that will go. OK I've tested it these are the result now change the rules? Don't you guys have to see it for yourself? People even offered you to show how Welch setups plays, but he didn't even get a response.

Redoing setups will only make it closer to the normal tour. Making them even less powerful by using bronze coaches etc... will only set it more back. Lack of risk kinda kills the SIM.

By redoing setups make them closer to REG tour, you must mean to remake them with Gold coaches, I cannot disagree more on this part. You can use soo much setups who are not on regular tour. At that tour I had developped there where 0 setups that I see on REG tour. And as I said not everything will be spended to power and wings etc, it will make it alot more variable, like I said I tested it and it was by far one of the best experiences I had with this game.


BTW we already reported so many results of what Welch can do, like my 13 losts in total, 7 against Top 10 players, 6 against Welch. Beated sh0Case with neuwirth vs neuwirth, chanceless 6-4 6-0 against Welch. LIke Ali said people who he could usually beat, but when they use Welch they can suddenly beat you. It's all so clear that I just can't understand how you guys don't see that.

[djarvik]

The game's dynamic will be the same as regular tour. I think you not hearing me or anyone else and just sticking to "I know". Well. I "know" too. So.... here we are

SIM tour should be drastically different and it will never be like that, because of the game itself. No setups will help here. "Trust me" "I know" I am tired of saying that there will ALWAYS be the Top 3 or so players. No matter what setups you do. It was/is the same in SIM, Reg, SIM TS3, Regular TS3, TS2, TS1, DMT, etc... this is just how it is.

I also agree with Robs philosophy about ITST. I think you maybe attaching your "own" meaning to what ITST is man. We are here to harbor the best players. There is nothing cheesy about a strong player/setup that has another 3 peers who are just as strong and actually the opposite in style. These are tier one players within the game. Want to play on the same level field? Pick on of the four. Want a better challenge? Pick a lower tired player.

We rolled from Rabbari, to Baab, to Welsh etc....as times and players change on ITST, certain players are more popular then others, but as long as there are at least 2 others that are on the same level - I don't see an issue.

I think with all the Forum talk about Welsh, it got into people's head a bit. They now lose the match before it is even started - because the opponent is using Welsh.

Just a suggestion, if you hate Welshes style, make a Rabbari setup, learn to play with him, and use him against Welshes players. Once you start winning a few matches - watch your next opponents start using Rabbari setups as well.

[djarvik]

Things are being taken for granted, "oh, this is what you do, trust me, now go do it". This is what ticks me off the most. I think it is great that we discuss stuff on the forum, but unless someone is willing to put in the hours and their time to test stuff out - it is not going to work, and to blame management for not spending their own time on every idea being coughed up is just low.

I'm not taking anything for granted man, I never said do this trust me and just do it. I've recalled numurous of reasons. And I'm willing to spend hours, no prob, I'll make time but I don't need to test if Welch is overpowerd because I know so. Only thing I could test is how high power restricting should be, and how easy short crosses with 0-0-20 Slavina are, but I can't think of more then that. I also think it's a little strange that we should test it, not because I think you should do it but I just wonder how that will go. OK I've tested it these are the result now change the rules? Don't you guys have to see it for yourself? People even offered you to show how Welch setups plays, but he didn't even get a response.

I didn't mean you per se with this, you seemed to be a bit more interested in "trying" things then others...but nevertheless, I see lots of posts-threads-suggestions-discussions-philosophy-theory but very little substance, concrete match reports with any idea that has been proposed. Want something proved? Prove it. "I know" - is not going to fly.

I do not see something like this: "Hey guys, just to follow up on my idea. I got together with Ali (or whomever) and we played a number a matches as follows: I used player A he used player B, here are the stats for these players (place stats and skills here). We played 3 sets and then switched players and played another 3 sets. Here are the scores, draw your conclusions. Attached please see the match stats as well. Now here are my impressions on each setup (post your impressions). Tomorrow night we will try something different, with Setup C against setup B and Setup A. " Ali then posts his impressions. Maybe even get another 1-2 people to participate. Develop a thread and come to a consensus, conclusion. Get someone from the "other camp" (someone who disagrees with you) play a few tests matches with him, change his opinion (this is actually a great way to show progress), post results. Have him post his impressions. Rinse and repeat a few times.

I haven't seen anything remotely like that.

[Ali-Iqb93]

Well if one setup is powerful than the other and if it's not cheesy to use that powerful setup then why were topspin invasion and other setups banned? They were banned because they are extremely powerful right? Then welch is the same thing as other banned coaches. What is keeping you from banning welch? Isn't it annoying when you reach the later stages of a tournament and everytime you lose against welch.. I lost 7 matches this year.. 5 were against welch..

[DennieFR1908]

The game's dynamic will be the same as regular tour. I think you not hearing me or anyone else and just sticking to "I know". Well. I "know" too. So.... here we are

I'm a little "piheaded lol" yes, but your sentance "I know". Well. I "know" too. So.... here we are " sais it all. Ur piheaded as well but your in charge here so there's not much I can do by talking

I lost 7 matches this year.. 5 were against welch..

Good point Ali, 4 out of 4 against Welch here. Looks like some good proof It's also clear numbers of Welch are increasing.

djarvik I also remind you about the result against sh0Case. Fist win and after 6-4 6-0 loss against Welch. You know why he took Welch since he accused me of cheating before and wanted to give me a payback. Finfishing the last point with only playing drop shots sais it all lol, little childish though, since I listened to his complainments about my "non advantage" ds I played our last match..

But it's a start, if there is someone who wants to spend some hours to "prove" this matter, just pm me or something.

BTW djarvik you have time to play a practice match sometime? You made me pretty curious how good you are and since you still play the game I'm sure we can play sometime.

[djarvik]

I am not only in charge, I also have a tad more experience then you on the matter. Loosing in ITST tournament is not testing or proof of anything as far as I am concerned.

I usually play on xbox and rather late my time, around 4-5am CET. But if you wish I can find some time to play on the weekend. Don't expect anything extraordinary, I am good, not excellent. Will be glad to play you.

[Ali-Iqb93]

I defeated firderis rabari 6-4 6-0 6-1, next time he uses welch I lose 6-4 4-6 4-6

I beat obskur most of the times in 3setter or straight sets, he uses welch I lose 3-6 2-6

I beat federer_4ever neuwrith in straight sets, he uses welch I lose in straight sets

I beat tino perf 6-4 6-1, he uses welch I lose 7-6 1-6 6-7

I beat poumadoro in 3 tough sets, he uses welch I lose next two matches 3-6 3-6 and 2-6 2-6

I play elgogrin and I gave him tough three setter, he uses welch I lose 0-6 1-6

[djarvik]

I defeated firderis rabari 6-4 6-0 6-1, next time he uses welch I lose 6-4 4-6 4-6

I beat obskur most of the times in 3setter or straight sets, he uses welch I lose 3-6 2-6

I beat federer_4ever neuwrith in straight sets, he uses welch I lose in straight sets

I beat tino perf 6-4 6-1, he uses welch I lose 7-6 1-6 6-7

I beat poumadoro in 3 tough sets, he uses welch I lose next two matches 3-6 3-6 and 2-6 2-6

I play elgogrin and I gave him tough three setter, he uses welch I lose 0-6 1-6

See what I posted above.


If you are going to provide this info, make it more detailed. Which player did you use in both matches with firderis? ...or in all matches ...I dont see any ITST matches you played against Obskur57 or Federer_4ever or Elgogrin7. I tend to be way more relaxed in friendlies, so are many others, including you.

Tino perf - first match you won. He got better, match got tighter - he won.

Paumadoro - make it the next 3 matches. Progressively worse - hence he has gotten better.

Can you also provide me how many times you won against Welsh? ...and against who. Just to give this a bigger data sample, for a better analysis.

This is all seems to me like a case where some player wins you with a tier 1 player, you use a tier 2. Then you make up in your mind that the opponent used an "overpowered" player and you run with it. Instead of saying "I tried to win with a lesser player - and failed".

Did you play the same people with either Baab or Rabbari? What were the results?