topspin invasion

[tigerofintegrity]

I agree with Miihawk. If you have a solid SIM tour, there's no reason to put unnecessary restrictions on the normal tour. For example, a clause of stamina < 90 is not necessary. People already complain stamina doesn't do enough and having a lot of it is not a massive advantage in this game. As well as that, OFB and DFB give points to stamina and a lot of coaches give a big bonus to it so a lot of builds can easily get over that mark.

For the SIM tour, restricting a lot of skills on top of heavy stat restrictions rules out a lot of coaches meaning there might not be a lot to choose from. And over restriction does make it hard to create players that fit into the categories. Instead of 'all stats must be greater than 50' have 'at least 4 levels in S&V'. That's the one people invest the least often in and most pros on the tour these days have a pretty competent serve so it would make sense.

Maybe even go a step further and say 'minimum of 4 in S&V, 3 in OFB and 3 in DFB'. That leaves the other 10 levels up for distribution however the player wants and nothing can go over level 14. Plus this way it's far less complicated and much more character creation friendly.

[ItaStallion]

the less complicated way to run a sim tour is to use silver coaches.

[jayl0ve]

Or just use the friggin Pros...

[ItaStallion]

use the pro's

bunch of Nadal vs Nadal matches no thanks ill skip the SIM tour if that happens.

i can only see a few players used Djokovic, Nadal, Serena and Jankovic.

[jayl0ve]

It was just a suggestion

[xMFHxMataiiBANNED]

Well I'd say 2K should just lower the FH & BH to +13 each to lessen the angles people are able to generate, leave the power as is and maybe improve something with the S&V players.

The thing I feel is most important for the fun of the game is to do something with the other coaches rather than just weaken everything so we get diluted skills and boring games.

[ItaStallion]

and i was just giving my opinion on your suggestion lol.

we do need some rules for the sim tour though and any suggestions are welcome

[Baghdad Baghdatis]

@Hawkeye & Tigerofintegrity

I am liking your feedback chaps and as I have said before you both bring a lot to the table. Keep it coming.

If we look at all of our view points on SIM and Normal tour they are not that far away...

Baghdad = SIM tour with restrictions
Hawkeye / Tigerofintegrity = SIM tour with slightly less restrictions

Baghdad = a normal tour with slight restrictions
Hawkeye / Tigerofintegrity = a normal tour with no restrictions (apart from TI/MD)

So basically your ideas are just watered down versions of mine, which is fair enough. As I said in my previous post I have not had enough experience or time to experiment with all the setups / coaches so it was a "generalized concept" - so I do appreciate your comments that my angle may be too restrictive in that limiting the variety and number of coaches. However...

Normal Tour: Whilst I will not touch this tour with a barge poll when a SIM tour arrives I still believe that there needs to be some restrictions other than just getting rid of just TI/MD. The way I see it is that ITST yes is an international gaming community that mirrors the ATP tournaments and 3 x 6 sets however to differentiate itself more notably from the World Tour I absolutely believe that there needs to be some sort of ceiling on stats. Just like in TS3 normal tour the max stats were 90 (I only used 90 as a basis for a ceiling in TS4 as a comparison) which meant there was no use of 100 stats and I believe the same should be true for TS4. Or else for me the normal tour would just be a World tour but run by ITST.

SIM Tour

I take on board your comments, which are valid, its just coming from a devoted SIM player my viewpoints are likely to be more extreme than most. The way I see it is if we are going to make a SIM tour, like in TS3, lets make if very different and distinguishable from the normal tour so members can clearly differentiate the two. Perhaps ItaSatallions suggestions for "Silver only coaches" might not be a bad idea, maybe not. Lets not forget that members will have a normal tour where they can pretty much do what they like and choose whatever setup they like, however the slight caps are only my two pennies worth, and to be honest, if it means allowing the SIM tour to be restricted and specific, then let the normal tour have whatever they want (e.g. 100+). I would rather have that then let the SIM tour even slightly resemble the normal tour.

On Jaylove's suggestion about the "using the pro's" i think it is a very reasonable suggestion in theory however due to the imbalance on certain Pro's (e.g. Nadal, Agassi) then it could become quite dull. Furthermore the sheer lack of variety of Men's Pros (like 15 or whatever) would further diminish the depth of the possibilities. I would not expect to see anything less than 25-30 player customs models in a developed roster.

P.s. @Hawkeye - "sitting on the fence kind of tour" - that was straight off the tongue that my man, a world exclusive, you heard it here first

[tigerofintegrity]

Actually, I think if we combine my method of minimum of 4S&V, 3OFB and 3DFB with silver coaches only, that could work out quite well. Running it through the coach calculator (props to Till69 for this incredibly useful program!) the maximum possible for FH + BH combined is 150 (anyone care to double-check). The maximum possible for power is 76 and the only one that might be a problem is serve which can get up to 89 and on power builds can often get above 80.

Now people might want to restrict those a little bit more on the SIM tour, like I'm sure Baghdad might feel 76 is a little too high on power and 150 for BH + FH might be a little too much. But, I think this is a really promising starting point and from here we would only need very minor restrictions. Say like if you want power 70 or less only, from here there aren't many combinations that get to over 70 so it wouldn't be very complicated to make/end up with a build that falls into that criteria.

I suggest people who are interested to test this suggestion out thoroughly on the coach calculator and report back whether they think this is a good, workable idea or we need a totally different approach.

[venom400]

Well I'd say 2K should just lower the FH & BH to +13 each to lessen the angles people are able to generate, leave the power as is and maybe improve something with the S&V players.

The thing I feel is most important for the fun of the game is to do something with the other coaches rather than just weaken everything so we get diluted skills and boring games.

Lowering 2 points on each wing is not going to do anything .

they need to lower the bonus to 10 or even 7 on each wing to make a difference.

And now , the key is not to make all the coaches into super coaches .

Boring games? how so ? right now we have virtua tennis with no weak side to attack because you can almost max out both wings ,it is more boring now due to the simplicity of both sides strong .

Right now is just like a game of pong , hit to both sides until someone wrong foots.

What if you had a side to attack to set up for the winner? that would add depth to the strategy or a player balanced but weaker ? more variarity adds to fun , not the other way around.

[venom400]

Actually, I think if we combine my method of minimum of 4S&V, 3OFB and 3DFB with silver coaches only, that could work out quite well. Running it through the coach calculator (props to Till69 for this incredibly useful program!) the maximum possible for FH + BH combined is 150 (anyone care to double-check). The maximum possible for power is 76 and the only one that might be a problem is serve which can get up to 89 and on power builds can often get above 80.

Now people might want to restrict those a little bit more on the SIM tour, like I'm sure Baghdad might feel 76 is a little too high on power and 150 for BH + FH might be a little too much. But, I think this is a really promising starting point and from here we would only need very minor restrictions. Say like if you want power 70 or less only, from here there aren't many combinations that get to over 70 so it wouldn't be very complicated to make/end up with a build that falls into that criteria.

I suggest people who are interested to test this suggestion out thoroughly on the coach calculator and report back whether they think this is a good, workable idea or we need a totally different approach.

I like thsi suggestions

[Gahan1990]

I think there could be a seperate thread for the ITST tour settings..^^

I have to say with your rules (Baghdad and Hawkeye normal tour or sim tour) my player would be banned with I think no reason

I use Fillion and have a 12/8 setting
The stats: (15 FH and 5 BH)
Forehand 74
Backhand 64
Serve 79
Volley 39
Power 84
Stamina 83
Speed 70
Reflexes 47
Inside Out Master/Diesel Server

I don't think my character is that good (or I am not that good) or overpowered or having very big advantages against other players, in a SIM or Normal Tour

Actually I disagree that Stamina doesn't do enough at least at the World Tour
I reguarly score there my points because I send them everywhere to the court, get them on the wrong foot will take their stamina bar very fast, if they having to use everytime a "reach" swing will also burn down their stamina bar etc.

The problem I can't say that for you after I played 4 matches against you (ok with no idea what would be against unwritten rules) and lost every match
You use mainly control shots I think and there is the problem, the greater number of players are using more often a power shot and the power shots are draining them out while you handle your stamina very well and with having a lot of stamina of course it will drain not that fast

The encouragement of volleying is good, but even with 39 I would volley as in a good position it gives you a good chance of a winner I would like to have my points more somewhere else

I would suggest to think of rules against offensive players with too much power and stamina at the same time (off more then 12 for example, could be 10 or 13 or XY)
I think they should take some volley points because if they take off and def levels and ignore s&v, they get good strokes, very good power, speed that doesn't count that much and too much stamina and it gets worse with "better" coaches (I mean with better coaches, coaches where you have to get 15 points)

For example I made through the calculator a player with the same coach Stephen Babb and 20 points in Forehand:
Off20
Forehand 81
Backhand 61
Serve 96
Volley 40
Power 98
Stamina 77
Speed 40
Reflexes 50

Off15/Def5
Forehand 86
Backhand 66
Serve 82
Volley 38
Power 84
Stamina 83
Speed 54
Reflexes 50

Off15/S&V5
Forehand 77
Backhand 57
Serve 96
Volley 54
Power 84
Stamina 69
Speed 47
Reflexes 61

Yes the players wouldn't be allowed as they have they have more then 14 in OFF, but I think the 3rd player would be definetly beatable while the first and second player would be a lot harder to play against, because of too good helpful stats
The first player has a lot of power if he has a good position a rocket will fly past
The second player has less power but too good stamina and strokes
The third player haven't got these helpful stats which would help his play, he is mainly based on his power/serve, but his strokes are as bad as I have them with my player, stamina is down a lot which will tire him out and the speed stat would come more into the play as I think a tired player with speed 80 is faster then with 47

You should think a bit more on the players, as with general (for example) "no instant rocket, crushing passing shot, diesel server, stick serve berseker" you make it for yourself actually too easy I think

There should be more think-about efforts in the deeper levels, I think you should allow them, but restrict them a bit like with my example

The rule sector for "players" would be maybe as long as the Lord of the Rings book, but I think having think a lot about the rules etc. it would pay out for you with having a great tour but thats just my opinion

[maximo]

i created a few days ago a topic porposing a sim tour playing with bronze or silver coaches, is the only way for playing a SIM tour, we could play some warm-up tournaments , like "djarvik open" in TS3, just for fun and test if it would be a good option.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Sorry guys I've been busy for quite a while. I'm not ignoring any of you. When things cool down a bit I'll return to reply .

[tigerofintegrity]

I think there could be a seperate thread for the ITST tour settings..^^

I have to say with your rules (Baghdad and Hawkeye normal tour or sim tour) my player would be banned with I think no reason

I use Fillion and have a 12/8 setting
The stats: (15 FH and 5 BH)
Forehand 74
Backhand 64
Serve 79
Volley 39
Power 84
Stamina 83
Speed 70
Reflexes 47
Inside Out Master/Diesel Server

I don't think my character is that good (or I am not that good) or overpowered or having very big advantages against other players, in a SIM or Normal Tour

Actually I disagree that Stamina doesn't do enough at least at the World Tour
I reguarly score there my points because I send them everywhere to the court, get them on the wrong foot will take their stamina bar very fast, if they having to use everytime a "reach" swing will also burn down their stamina bar etc.

The problem I can't say that for you after I played 4 matches against you (ok with no idea what would be against unwritten rules) and lost every match
You use mainly control shots I think and there is the problem, the greater number of players are using more often a power shot and the power shots are draining them out while you handle your stamina very well and with having a lot of stamina of course it will drain not that fast

The encouragement of volleying is good, but even with 39 I would volley as in a good position it gives you a good chance of a winner I would like to have my points more somewhere else

I would suggest to think of rules against offensive players with too much power and stamina at the same time (off more then 12 for example, could be 10 or 13 or XY)
I think they should take some volley points because if they take off and def levels and ignore s&v, they get good strokes, very good power, speed that doesn't count that much and too much stamina and it gets worse with "better" coaches (I mean with better coaches, coaches where you have to get 15 points)

For example I made through the calculator a player with the same coach Stephen Babb and 20 points in Forehand:
Off20
Forehand 81
Backhand 61
Serve 96
Volley 40
Power 98
Stamina 77
Speed 40
Reflexes 50

Off15/Def5
Forehand 86
Backhand 66
Serve 82
Volley 38
Power 84
Stamina 83
Speed 54
Reflexes 50

Off15/S&V5
Forehand 77
Backhand 57
Serve 96
Volley 54
Power 84
Stamina 69
Speed 47
Reflexes 61

Yes the players wouldn't be allowed as they have they have more then 14 in OFF, but I think the 3rd player would be definetly beatable while the first and second player would be a lot harder to play against, because of too good helpful stats
The first player has a lot of power if he has a good position a rocket will fly past
The second player has less power but too good stamina and strokes
The third player haven't got these helpful stats which would help his play, he is mainly based on his power/serve, but his strokes are as bad as I have them with my player, stamina is down a lot which will tire him out and the speed stat would come more into the play as I think a tired player with speed 80 is faster then with 47

You should think a bit more on the players, as with general (for example) "no instant rocket, crushing passing shot, diesel server, stick serve berseker" you make it for yourself actually too easy I think

There should be more think-about efforts in the deeper levels, I think you should allow them, but restrict them a bit like with my example

The rule sector for "players" would be maybe as long as the Lord of the Rings book, but I think having think a lot about the rules etc. it would pay out for you with having a great tour but thats just my opinion

Your player wouldn't be banned on the normal tour, just the SIM tour. The goals of the SIM tour is completely different. It's trying to simulate realism and encourage diversity as much as possible. Your player may not seem overpowered in comparison to builds in the normal tour but it would in any SIM tour. Plus, all the builds you mentioned bar the 20OFB one are perfectly fine for the normal tour.

I think because of the way this game distributes stats (i.e. that they are linked together through leveling up core skill packages) it becomes very hard and complicated when you start restricting primarily on stats. Because the starting point of building your character is through leveling, then the restrictions should start from there. This method simplifies the process a whole lot.

For example, I do agree there should be some restrictions on the normal tour to discourage extreme builds and encourage diversity. Instead of 'this must be less than 90 and this can only be 85 if that is less than 75' I suggest requiring every player to have a minimum of 2S&V, 2OFB and 2DFB. Then they are free to distribute the rest of the levels however they want and everything after that is fair game. Running this through coach calculator, I can see that extreme builds are pretty much accounted for and you won't really get too many combinations that leads you to anything over 90.

*Actually, with my proposed method, your player would be banned from the normal tour Gahan but that would be an easy fix. You would just need to put 2 levels into S&V and that problem would be solved.