topspin invasion

[venom400]

That will most likely just shift the problem to the next coach in line.

Im sure the shift of power will
Move to the next coach , but this will bring it down lower in line with everyone else , i have not had any trouble playing against any other coach , i mean i win and lose some , at least my oponents are not rolling ther face on the controller and winning

And I play with a all rounder with volley artist and diesel hard hitter , do im hardly a cookie cutter spec

[Coolhand Texas]

I still fail to understand why no one is actually posting any of these: "There are enough setups that can beat TI/MD pretty easy"

For example:
- With 0-12-8 and Tomas Madr you can blow away most TI/MD players (hard flats to center)

- Defensive: With drop shots you get them pretty easy out of their "comfort zone"

I dont think the drop shots work to well, even the ones I hit pretty well, they get a nice top spin shot off of it.

[tonedawg1]

I still fail to understand why no one is actually posting any of these: "There are enough setups that can beat TI/MD pretty easy"

For example:
- With 0-12-8 and Tomas Madr you can blow away most TI/MD players (hard flats to center)

- Defensive: With drop shots you get them pretty easy out of their "comfort zone"

I dont think the drop shots work to well, even the ones I hit pretty well, they get a nice top spin shot off of it.

I think you have to wrong foot or trick them for the dropshot to work well against them

[Robbin92]

Anyone defending the Chinese coach I have a special dare for you , make a player without using Quah , and come back with screen shots of wins in all Grand slams and masters , for 4 seasons , do this and I will be shut , you can use any coach you want except the Chinese coach , Deal ?

I've done it already in two seasons. One of them (finished second in second season) with a 3/10/7-Matthew Grody player, but i can't show this results because I now have a new player.

That player is 0/10/10 and has the skills Return Serve Counter and Fatality, if you don't believe this go on Xbox tour to previous season and I should be there somewhere around number 10. You will see that i've lost none tournament matches and one quick match, but that was from a very good MD/IR-player.

If you want to beat a MD/TI-player you just have to put him under pressure all of the time, and play with a lot of variety. Play some attacking balls cross-court, then play some defensive balls down the line and if you have a lot of time play a drop shot. If you have a player like my first player you wil have volley shot artist with which you can even vary a lot more. The key is perfect timing;)

[maximo]

now everyone is dedicated to teaching tactics , that's not the issue, the issue is that these skills are more effective than others, and the tour will convert in a list of photocopied players, many people go from being merely good to be incredibly good, and all those who give lessons on how to play, when they lose 3 or 4 consecutive matches against players with TI MD, will not take a minute to create a player with those skills.

[venom400]

now everyone is dedicated to teaching tactics , that's not the issue, the issue is that these skills are more effective than others, and the tour will convert in a list of photocopied players, many people go from being merely good to be incredibly good, and all those who give lessons on how to play, when they lose 3 or 4 consecutive matches against players with TI MD, will not take a minute to create a player with those skills.

I agree with this .

If gaming history has shown something is that the mayority of players convert to the over powered class and spec , and the spec no longer reflects how the player wants to play , most people realize that while it would be awesome to have a skill like drop shot artist or longer better i will not take those skills because it is easier to win with this skills ,when all the top players pile up on a partucular spec and have great win to lose ratio and only have equal loss numbers to similar specs , that is what as a developer o as a tour host should raise the flags to balance or in the second ban this spec .

Game developer Blizzard hands down the best game balancer in ging industry well knows this and moves quickly to adjust classes and specs tht are over played , people cry and then move to the next class that wins the most , so even tough there is always a class or spec that has a particular advantage there are so small that a slight adjustment can bring them down , and this is reflected by a almost perfect balance amongst all classes .


Heed the warning leave people
Using this coach unchecked and watch people
Leave the game and league in hordes .

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

That will most likely just shift the problem to the next coach in line.

That's why we need a SIM tour. The TS3 sim tour changed constantly, so whether 2k releases patches or not should not be a problem. Nothing is absolute in a sim tour, as it can be constantly updated and tweaked. Things will be modified to fit any updates, if 2k decides to release any more patches at all.

We've already had several tournaments, so this isn't a matter of "lets see how things turn out". There's already an "everything goes" tour, but some of us are tired of it and want something else. Many people are leaving, and many more will continue to leave as long as the "everything goes" tour is the only one that exists.

A sim tour will not solve everything, we know that. We just want as many styles as possible to flourish, and I think it's time that we start putting forth ideas for one. Once again, whether 2k patches things up or not should not be the issue. Nothing is ever finalized in the sim tour, just like how TS3 sim changed multiple times.

I already had a thread up about my ideas. In no way are they the best or absolute.

RULES
You can only have a max of 14 in the Offensive Baseline Stat.
You can only have a max of 14 in the Defensive baseline stat.

The coach Pei Jing Quah (Topspin invasion, Monster Defense) is banned.

1) Customs with a power rating of 69 points or less.
You can create any type of player you want, as long as your power stat is 69 points or less.

2)Customs with a power rating between 70 - 79 points
Your strokes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 79 points.

3)Customs with a power rating of 80 points or more
Your storkes (backhand/forehand) cannot surpass 69 points.

I added 1 more rule to that though.

You can only have a max of 14 in the Defensive baseline stat.

For those wondering why, this is to prevent people on the extreme end of DFB form dominating. When you create characters in the middle ground, other characters on both extremes(OFB/DFB) can give you a lot of trouble. The extreme OFBs are too fast with their 40spe, and stamina is useless so they can just power serve and blast away all the time. These rules essentially remove those stats and lessens offense. What that means is that now the extreme DFBs (80+ strokes, 80+ spe) will become even stronger. They will handle the "lessened offense" much easier, and they can become very offensive with their 80+ strokes. Their 80+ speed will also mean a bit more now, since people with 80+strokes and 80+pw don't exist anymore. They will have an advantage over a ton of styles that lay in the middle ground. Hence why the cap at 14 for DFB. The lessened defense brings them in line with the lessened offense. Characters in the middle ground with various stats will stand more of a chance against all styles. In theory at least.

Anyway, I personally think it's time for a sim tour to start before any more non-TI/MD players leave. Sim tour ideas should start being looked at.

[Coolhand Texas]

Whats with changing the power???

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

Whats with changing the power???

Is that directed at me? If yes what do you mean? As in why did I put power and stroke restrictions?

[Coolhand Texas]

yea why do you want to change the power and put restrictions on the strokes?

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

yea why do you want to change the power and put restrictions on the strokes?

It goes all the way back to the Pro players percentage idea that I wrote about a while back. I tried to come up with rules that were based around how the pros were made. It's pretty long so I'll refrain from posting it here. This was the first post I made about it

http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=187505&highlight=#187505

After analyzing other pro players with the percentage idea I saw a trend between strokes and power, and put that in this, http://www.intertopspintour.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14366, thread. Hence the 3 stroke/power restriction rules. What this also does is that it forces people to put points into certain stats (sta, spe, rf, vol). Especially sta, spe, and rf as they are the ones that don't do much right now.

[venom400]

How abput this for an idea , make it so you give a maximum amount of points to be alocated between fh and bh , gor example
150 points , so you either have a balanced character or a character with a strong side and a weak one .

It should
Start some creativity on the players side

[tigerofintegrity]

I am not picking a side, but bottom line is that a HUGE percentage of people use one setup now. Hell, even TS3 40-90 was more diverse.

...if not for any other reason but this, the setup in my opinion should be changed to make it tad less appealing and introduce more variety.

Same here. I mean, both sides have their reasons but for me, this would be my main reason for doing something about this build. I do like variety in the game and I just don't really like seeing 80% of people using this build just because it's already well established and a lot of them are too lazy to bother to try out different builds.

[Baghdad Baghdatis]

@ Hawkeye

Hey man,

Bottom line is you talk a lot of sense and it is "refreshing" to have a member like you to add so much value to this site and to the principal of SIM tennis. I was a big player in the TS3 SIM tour and I completely got the concept they introduced and embraced the tour as a result.

On your proposed 'first draft' ideas of what a SIM tour could look like (e.g. power not surpass 69 then any other stat can be whatever etc). If you want my honest opinion what you have proposed sits between a SIM tour and a normal tour - almost a sitting on the fence kind of tour...

In TS3 the first SIM model they produced had a setup like this and it got re-modeled after a couple of months because:

A) The majority went for the big power ceiling rather than power at 69 (for example)
B) The majority went to all possible ceilings in the same area's so there was not much variety in the end at all.

Now in TS4 due to the introduction of the coaches and also that you do control individual XP's points (e.g. 70+1 = 72) because of OB/DB/SV distribution it is now harder to define the tours in my opinion. Therefore I feel that it will take the ITST a bit longer to trial relatively speaking than in TS3. Lots of combinations and lots of coaches etc.

Now, without getting a bit too deep and technical on this post I will sum up what I believe the direction the tours should go in (assuming no patches of course)

Normal Tour

Summary - members here will want big setups, some members play for power and slugging fests and want quick arcade tennis. Short rallies are the norm and being the best at the best 'perceived' set up is the norm. That said, we want this tour to be different to the World Tour. So my basic ideas:

* Topspin Invasion / Monster Defense - outlaw the coach
* Power - not > 90
* Wings - 1 Wing not > 90, other wing not > 80
* Speed, Stamina, Serve not > 90
* Volley, Reflexes - must not be < 40

So basically it will run like the 90-40 TS3 tour and the key thing here is that power is not as important. I regularly play with a 70 power guy and have no problems against an 87 power player. Therefore it should encourage guys to put their XP's in other areas such speed or stamina. Obviously the coach setup makes the distribution of the above less specific than TS3 but as I have not experimented with loads of setups to call it any closer the above is only a generalized concept.

SIM Tour

Summary - members here want more realistic tennis, creative online tennis, ability to make use of all the shots / buttons and for them to be effective in rallies. KEY here for me though is again carrying forward the concept of TS3 SIM final model which ensured for every key strength in a custom it was offset by a poor skill / weakness. For example, 82 Forehand and 59 backhand. With risk gone TS4 can no longer be spoiled the way that the TS3 SIM tour was. Don't get me wrong, LT risk in TS3 added to the game but RT risk and ample power meant it felt at times some opponents were 90-40 gate crashers. So my basic ideas are:

* Topspin Invasion / Monster Defense - outlaw
* Instant rocket, crushing passing shot, diesel server, stick serve berserker - outlaw, now this is just my preference that anything that infers extreme power and explosion need not exist in this tour. Some may argue different but lets make it as SIM as possible. Ample power or precision can be created without the above.
* NO stats less than 50, therefore requires a mandatory minimum 4 on Serve and Volley. Volleying should be encouraged and if not used in the game it will reduce the spend / bulk on other strengths which is moving towards SIM.
* * Power - not greater than 72
* Volley or Reflex - one needs to be greater than 60 or >

Note: if 2 x strong wings (e..g 80, 70) then power to be 60 or less.

I would love for it to be a re-creation of the of the 70's and 80's Pro tour when the likes of Lendel, Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Becker, Edberg, Agassi ruled the world. Take away explosion power, get a wooden racket in the hand kind of thing and lets f'ing do it. To be fair I wouldn't even mind ITST re-creating the legends and many more with Pro only players. Let them and Sam250 create the model's could be good fun and then we could have a true SIM pro tour. I don't even mind just having the option of clothing the guy. The rooster could be endless (depending on the number of possible combinations) and search for more legends from ATP player guide if we all forgot about a few? Just an idea.

Anyway, I would like to see ITST creating specific customs for us (member player creation or Pro ITST models) and introduce a deeper roster as time goes by. The above is only an initial brain dump and some may not physically be possible due to the coaches.

[Hawkeye Miihawk]

@ Baghdad

Lol, I like how you put it, "almost a sitting on the fence kind of tour...". After creating quite a few characters, and using them online, I've realized that you're actually right.
Characters I've created that were more in the middle, not all rounders per say, have a lot of trouble with extreme OFBs/DFBs. Extreme OFBs power them off too quickly, and they are not offensive enough to hit through extreme DFBs. That's why you see so many extremes online with the same skills. Ever wonder why no one uses longer! better! (this is actually a good skill imo) or wrong foot expert? It's because those coaches give you skills that make you more of a middle ground character. Problem is the middle men have trouble with those on the extreme end of the spectrum, so there's more of an incentive to create extremes instead.
By lessening the extremes people will not be afraid to go for the sitting-on-the-fence-not-really-good-not-so-bad coaches anymore.
Lol I really like that term, sitting on the fence kind of tour.


My thoughts on your ideas:

Normal tour
Hmm, I never thought of making any changes to the normal tour. I figured there could be a tour where people just did what they wanted. Some people do enjoy TI/MD or 90*3 type matches. Trying to put restrictions on the normal tour would bring too much opposition. You'll have people, like right now, arguing over whether a coach/setup is too strong or not. Even if Pei Jing Quah were banned, pretty sure she wouldn't, there'll still be certain coaches that everyone will flock too. We've had so much turmoil over a single coach. Now imagine telling them that they have to have speed, strokes, stamina, volley, and srv restrictions? That would cause a lot of problems. They'll say that any rules made are an attempt to turn the normal tour into a sim tour, and that rules are meant for the sim tour only. See where I'm getting at? Too many problems will arise. Some people like to create whatever character they want, which, imo, is fine. That's specifically what the normal tour is for.


SIM
I tried creating characters with your rules, but it's very hard. A lot of coaches were eliminated because of the requirements. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with instant rocket, crushing passing shot, diesel server, or stick serve berserker. In the current system, apart from TI/MD, people are going for the most powerful characters (strokes/power/serve wise). The coaches that usually come with variations of those 4 skill usually give a lot of points to strokes, power, and serve. That's why they are the most common skills in WT. The skills themselves are not necessarily the issue. It's that you can create a character with 90fh 100pw 90srv diesel server/crushing passing or the other combinations similar to that. You can have characters with variations of those 4 skills that are SIM like. What makes them arcady is the way the points are distributed.

(NO stats less than 50, Power - not greater than 72, Volley or Reflex - one needs to be greater than 60) This is where the I had the most problems. Trying to create characters that fits these requirements is too difficult. It eliminates a lot of styles/coaches that aren't overpowered. It also eliminates underpowered stats as well.

Very nice ideas. I would say make the SIM tour rules a bit less restrictive so more styles can fit in there.