All coaches allowed?

[ICEMAN_9588]

Yeah...I agree...the mods shouldn't be specific attributes or skills but divided into the three main focal points...S&V...OFF and DEF...allowing no number to exceed 9 or to be less than 4. This is balance...then any coach should be accessible .

No but it's ok for me to have so "extreme" setups. No problem, I use a 0-20-0 player in WT.
But since ITST rules allow these particular setups, please don't say to me "rules are here to balance the setups", that's all I ask.

Anyway, I've decided to try Lydia Jara as coach in female World Tour, I'm curious to see how it'll be.

[Sorauze]

I love volley but when i play volley, my opponent using lob lob lob lob lob ...

[Airton111]

Lob is allowed and I love do it when my opponent eats the net.. And the best ever is Jan Zajic, good day

[ICEMAN_9588]

I love volley but when i play volley, my opponent using lob lob lob lob lob ...

Yes but you can do nothing about that.
Everybody uses his own weapons. Clearly if you have a great volley, win a point by passing shots will become harder and harder.

Lob is a good solution.
You can avoid it staying not so close to the net, and being prepared to face a lob from your opponent.

[BrushedBigJJ]

Yeah...I agree...the mods shouldn't be specific attributes or skills but divided into the three main focal points...S&V...OFF and DEF...allowing no number to exceed 9 or to be less than 4. This is balance...then any coach should be accessible .

This is a good idea, but to get certain coaches you have to have 18, 17, 16, etc on s&v, off base, or def base.

So there would only be 10 or so coaches available to choose from.

[BrushedBigJJ]

It's all about who's better using control shots. It's not a bad thing, just an objective statement.

I believe I already said this?

And it's not speed that trumps power, it's control shots.

Well I disagree. The rules are there to balance the setups. If 92 power isn't enough for someone to power the ball by someone or if 92 speed isn't enough for someone to run a ton of balls down the problem lies with the user.

Well, I have to disagree again.
I said that you can easily handle a 100 power player with an "unoverstated" speed (55-60, or even less, it's fair enough). The point, as you rightly said, is control shots.

What are you disagreeing with?
92 speed isnt enough to get the job done?
92 power isnt enough to get the job done?
Or the problem lies with the user?

So, if it's quite possible face super-powered players with an average speed, think about what it could be done with great speed (and the right setup): I'm talking about 70-75, not 85-90 like with Samala or Slavina.
But now, considering all the things I've just said, we got to ask ourselves the opposite question: with an average power, for example 80-85 (Rabari, or even Neuwirth can give you that), can you handle a player with more than 90 speed?

And be careful, I'm not talking about users skills. Consider to play against yourself: you use an 80-85 power player, your "opponent" uses a 90 speed player.
You think you can win?

Yes definitely. It would be 50-50. Because it will be a control shot battle not a power vs. speed battle. And the 90 speed player would hit completely ineffective power shots to the open court.

That's why I came to these conclusions.
You can or can't agree, of course. But I'm pretty sure that IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT, speed is greater than power in TS4 (considering the control shots technique).

Speed is more forgiving than power. Because topspin 4 wont let you run the wrong way once your opponent hits the ball. If you could run with 100 speed the wrong way it would be a different story. When you picked the wrong way you would get yourself way out of position.

With power you get yourself out of position because when you hit it hard,(especially when forced way out wide)the ball can be coming back before you can get back into position. Power players who only allow themselves to be caught in this position on a limited basis and strategically use their power to hit winners to the open court are tough to beat.

You talked about balance.

Well, a player with 17 points out of 20 on "offensive baseline" or "defensive baseline" is not balanced. It's almost a lexical paradox

Its a more balanced "offensive baseliner" or "defensive baseliner." And offensive baseliners are suppose to have a lot of power and defensive baseliners are suppose to have a lot of speed while forcing them to put more on their other stats? What else needs to be done for their to be balance?

A player with 92 speed and 52 serve (40 points!) is not balanced at all.
And of course, a player with 51 speed and 84 serve (33 points) is not so balanced, even if you can notice by yourself that the difference is less emphasized.

Then Topspin 4 Federer is unbalanced, 93 fh and 63 bh (30 points) and 60 serve (33 points)
Andy Roddick 91 power and 59 speed (32 points)
Micheal Chang 92 speed and 53 serve (39 points)
Andre Agassi 91 fh, 57 serve (34 points)

Are these players unbalanced?
And if I picked volley for my low stat the gaps would be around 50 for some players.

[ICEMAN_9588]

What are you disagreeing with?
92 speed isnt enough to get the job done?
92 power isnt enough to get the job done?
Or the problem lies with the user?

None of the 3.
I'm saying that great speed (or even average speed) is good enough to handle great power.
But great power isn't generally enough to handle great speed.

I know it could sound strange, it sounds strange even to me, which I'm a "historical" user of power player in WT.
But I think, if I can defeat without problems also some of the best guys using Gallo and Babb with a "normal" Neuwirth player, what could it mean?
I've become the king of control-shot technique? I really don't think so...

definitely. It would be 50-50. Because it will be a control shot battle not a power vs. speed battle. And the 90 speed player would hit completely ineffective power shots to the open court.

This is true, but the tactic of a 90 speed player is to get the opponent out of the court, so he won't need too much power when he'll have to hit decisive winner.

But I agree on this point, in general. For example, shot-counter skill works better when you have a good power to support it.
I mean, also control shots themselves are more effective.

Speed is more forgiving than power. Because topspin 4 wont let you run the wrong way once your opponent hits the ball. If you could run with 100 speed the wrong way it would be a different story. When you picked the wrong way you would get yourself way out of position.

With power you get yourself out of position because when you hit it hard,(especially when forced way out wide)the ball can be coming back before you can get back into position. Power players who only allow themselves to be caught in this position on a limited basis and strategically use their power to hit winners to the open court are tough to beat.

I didn't get this point, I mean literally.
I couldn't understand what you are trying to say, my English is not perfect, I must apologize.
You mean some power player try to hit winners when they're caught out of position, on purpose?

But yes, I agree when you say speed is more forgiving than power, it's something similar I'm talking about when I say that speed is "greater" than power.
For instance, if I (100 power player) hit a slice wide serve and then I hit a break back shot (I don't know if it's the right terme, I mean if I hit my forehand on the opponent's fh while he is going to the opposite direction), I must it it perfectly cause my opponent has great speed (let's say, 70, or even 65).
On the contrary, if he does the same thing, he will have more chances to success.
First of all cause my player is very slow, and if he hits a good slice serve, I'll have to move with anticipation in order to return it.
Then, if he hits a break back shot, I won't be as fast as he is to immediately change direction and try to hit back the ball another time.
And even if i will, most likely I'll be in a defensive fase, cause he will take control of the rally.

Its a more balanced "offensive baseliner" or "defensive baseliner." And offensive baseliners are suppose to have a lot of power and defensive baseliners are suppose to have a lot of speed while forcing them to put more on their other stats? What else needs to be done for their to be balance?

Ok, now you specified this, it's more clear.

Then Topspin 4 Federer is unbalanced, 93 fh and 63 bh (30 points) and 60 serve (33 points)
Andy Roddick 91 power and 59 speed (32 points)
Micheal Chang 92 speed and 53 serve (39 points)
Andre Agassi 91 fh, 57 serve (34 points)

Are these players unbalanced?
And if I picked volley for my low stat the gaps would be around 50 for some players.

Roddick, Chang and Agassi weren't balanced in their real carreers even!

[zaid137]

i believe it should be kept the way it is
the banned coaches stay banned .. and 100 power with gallo or 98 serve 98 power with Babb or 90 fh 90 bh ...they all look cheesy ... specially if the player using auto positioning . the 40 speed player with 100 power runs like sonic and hit every shot with 100 power ... so i prefer they stay the same . its so balanced like now ... no need to change or modify anything .. and i dont believe people will raise alot if any of the rulses changed ... honestly the short cross court should be banned or a rule put to reduce it ... because its so unrealistic and ridiculous to use in every rally .

[ICEMAN_9588]

honestly the short cross court should be banned or a rule put to reduce it ... because its so unrealistic and ridiculous to use in every rally .

Well, if even short cross court would be banned, you can directly close TS4 section of intertopspintour.net
You talk about "realistic", but you don't understand that TS4 has a lot of lacks that make it very far from a realistic tennis simulation.

Yes, it's the best tennis game for PS3 until now, in my opinion.
But when you can hit about 90-100% of first serves in 2 or 3 sets (even hitting 210 kmh) it's not realistic.
When you can hit about 100-120 winners in a five set match, it's unrealistic.
When you can make only 20-30 unforced errors in 5 sets, it's unrealistic (unless you are Nadal...and we aren't).

So please stop thinking about TS4 as a representation of reality, cause it's clearly not.
You try to make the game similar to real tennis as much as possible, but the problem is another one.

Shots like perfect lobs, amazing coverage of the net (when you have 85 points on volley, at least), amazing drop shots from every side of the court, amazing gaps hitting the ball on the line, amazing passing shots, amazing "control shots", amazing super-fast wide serves, amazing super-power shots, amazing short cross courts...
Well, these are all POSSIBLE shots in real tennis, you can see them any time.

The difference between reality and videogame, is that videogame allows you to do all that stuff regularly.
That's why TS4 is not realistic.
But if we think about it as a simple videogame, and not as a representation of reality, things will change a lot.

You cant' say that a particular shot or skill is unrealistic in general. I mean, if I'm good doing it, why should I be penalized? In fact, I think (for instance) that the rule of hitting not too much dropshots is wrong, for this reason.
The rule of serving near the half-court line, same. Why can't I serve from the middle of the court (I'm not saying from tramlines)?

And even if you want to compare real tennis and TS4 tennis, let's give it a shot.
100 power player and 98-98 players banned: so Raonic, Isner, Karlovic, Soderling, Del Potro, maybe Tsonga...cannot play in World Tour.
Extremely fast players, banned: so Rafa, David, I'm sorry...good bye.
Monster defense skill banned: Nole, I don't know what to say...
Lobs during the rally, banned: Andy, take it easy...
Too much dropshots, banned: Roger...oh no, it's ok for you. You're extremely talented, will surely find out something else...do more serve and volley!

Ok now I'm joking around a little bit, but you understand what I'm trying to say.
Or at least, I hope

[sebastianhu]

I also think that longer, better should be banned, it's as bad as monster defense if not even worse.

[BluudyEEfingaz]

A lot of things are frustrating...for instance...excessive control shots...the most unrealistic type of shot in this game...but unfortunately...they're allowed. Banning more coaches isn't at all what the tour needs. Learning to counter each type of style is what we need to start doing. I was on the bandwagon to ban TI/MD just like everyone else, but that's caused an ever greater problem...everyone starts playing the EXACT same either power (Gallo) or...short cross court shots ALL match...flat control shots back and forth. Allowing all coaches would at least bring this game some life. I think with modifications...the rules SHOULD have been...

All coaches allowed...

One ORANGE wing
One YELLOW wing
NO GREY stats

This adds variety...of course most people who build their player on this tour sacrifice either Volley or Speed...why? Because even with 39 volley skill...and player who hits a descent serve can come to net and hit a volley up put away volley. And speed...ESPECIALLY on clay...does not matter...and if that player masters control shots...forget about it. This tour needs a makeover...NO GREY STATS and only ONE dominant wing.

[ICEMAN_9588]

Well, control shots is the only skill that can't be banned. Cause sometimes it's impossible to say if your opponents use them or not (for example Neuwirth allows you to hit an acceleration even not loading all the power shot, after your opponent's power shot).
Luckily.

But I absolutely agree with all the rest.
Even if I would modify the setups in a different way.

1 orange wing, 1 yellow wing and no grey stats would bring out the same problem you're talking about: constricting ways to create a player.

[JohnCurveo]

So recap: 22 people, 36% says they want to keep playing with this rules and 64% d't, so what's next

[Cro Morgan]

So recap: 22 people, 36% says they want to keep playing with this rules and 64% d't, so what's next

You can't take anything from this poll. Too many options. Should have been "Yes" or "No."

[djarvik]

So recap: 22 people, 36% says they want to keep playing with this rules and 64% d't, so what's next

Read Cro's post....then....

...and if you do take something from it, treat each option as a separate one - after all, you did separate them
in this scenario - the "keep playing with same rules" wins.