Full Ace Tennis

[kschoice]

BTW I love the fact that you hang out here to talk about your game.

I am very much dedicated in making Full Ace as good as possible for tennis fans. Apart from my own opinion on existing tennis games, my motivation was based a lot on what I read on forums from other players who shared it.

Therefore, it is very important for me to discuss the game with people who are interested in it, and in the future our customers.

[ANILTJE]

Do you have MSN or something?

[djarvik]

If you willing to listen to me and Anil, we can practically guaratee you a perfect tennis game

I will install it now and give my feedback.

Whats your MSN?

[tomi]

i have played the game:) but that game is not for play with keyboard.its very very hard....the players animations are like a"robot":)

[djarvik]

I got it to run on 64. So all is well there.

A few things that strike me first.

- Players "glide" don't run.
- Changing direction is way too easy for me, players are weightless, like feathers. It should be near impossible to stop on the deadrun and start runing the other way.
- There has to be more outs. Look at DMT for Hit engine. Combine that with your "side choosing". Basically, me as a noob, I have to miss a lot....if i hit to earlly or too late. Or aim to long.
- Players are generally move too fast.


More coming

[Rob ITST]

I halfway agree with Djarvik. I think most tennis game designers have underestimated their customers - we play tennis, and will accept a game that is difficult.

But I'm sure you also want to make it accessible to casual players.

I don't have any idea what is involved in changing that sort of thing, but having a beginner and advanced mode seems like the best of both - with the online mode also having those options.

The "side choosing", imo, is one of the best ideas I've seen in a game, but I still don't like the idea of the random misses on serves. I understand the reason for it, but I think making it very difficult to serve is a better solution.

[djarvik]

I agree with Rob.

Best tennis game should be accessible for instant gratification and have a deep enough gameplay to attaract "us", sim tennis players.

All my suggestions are from "us" point of view.

I say, if you want to keep selling the game after 5 years (see DMT) go with "us" priority. Otherwise, be prepared to release a complete new game in 2 years....your sales will decline to none of any arcade tennis game, their lifespan is much shorter then a good SIM.

You can gear towards SIM and then have an Arcade mode where things like speed of player, direction changes, outs, etc... will be be either increased or decreased (outs).

[Yippie-Caiay]

ok so i came to this thread to post my thoughts about the game and i saw djarvik already spoke for me...

players are way too fast, the game is so defensive, and topspin shots are too slow, they are like lobs so every shot has to be risked (double tap)...

and dont tell me timing matters in serves, cause i finish every match and almost every game with 50 percent in first serves...beleive me it happens every time

the ball needs to travel faster in rallies that must be fixed

[kschoice]

"Yippie-Caiay" gotta love that nickname

players are way too fast, the game is so defensive, and topspin shots are too slow, they are like lobs so every shot has to be risked (double tap)...

the ball needs to travel faster in rallies that must be fixed

As I said earlier, I recently made an adjustment in the ball mechanics that made ball trajectories way more realistic (spin didn't have enough influence). However, I need to rethink each shot characteristics because now topspin balls travel less far and thus tend to go higher.

and dont tell me timing matters in serves, cause i finish every match and almost every game with 50 percent in first serves...beleive me it happens every time

The "side choosing", imo, is one of the best ideas I've seen in a game, but I still don't like the idea of the random misses on serves. I understand the reason for it, but I think making it very difficult to serve is a better solution.

Timing does matter in serves. But I came to a conclusion recently that the system is too cryptic as it is, so I am almost done adding a visual hint to show how timing works. I think this way misses will already seem less random.

Honestly, I fail to see the problem in ending games with around 50 % first serve in itself. That is pretty common in real life professional tennis I think.

Here's my opinion on making it very difficult to serve : I think I could try as much as I want to make serve more and more difficult ; with the limited input of a pad, if there's not any randomness in it, there will always be someone who will play the game long enough to master it so that he will serve like Roddick with 99 % first serve accuracy. On the other hand, more casual players (but still great tennis enthusiasts) will run from a game if they need too much time mastering even the simpler things.

My approach in Full Ace is that the gamepad (or keyboard, if you're brave and/or have been gifted with three or more hands ) is your interface to the body of a professional tennis player (your 'avatar', in a way ). Therefore :

_ You should be able to hit simple shots quickly and with high accuracy, as it should be no problem for a professional player.
_ No matter how well you master the gameplay, there are some things your character won't be able to do (most of the time or even always) due to his own limitations, and real life aspects of tennis. It is true for always serving in at highest speeds, or for hitting a strong shot in response to a high speed serve you barely touch.
_ At least as much as being able to master the gameplay, I expect the player to be able to follow tennis strategy, using short balls to attack, trying to temporize when defending, finding the best spot to hit the ball and the best spot to go back to when expecting the opponent's shot.
_ AIs are fair. AI shots are handled the same way as the player's in regard to their accuracy.

That said, I really appreciate the feedback and discussion with you guys, and your opinion matters very much to me. It's been three years working on that game, and at least twice since I began picturing it in my head, so I think you can understand that you can't expect to change my mind altogether about certain things. Anyway, I think the time I spend here talking with you shows my open-mindedness. Particularly, your comments on ball and player speed are important because it's hard to keep an unbiased eye on those aspects when you work on the game on a daily basis. Now, I am the only one working on the game code, so I can't do everything at once. I'll try to address all the things I have to in a good order.

[Q. Reese]

Okay Kschoice. You are ready?

I must say that overall, I liked my experience with the demo!!

My controller recommendations:

1) Get the keyboard back as . . . note this . . . AN OPTION. From my experience, I know a lot of players of tennis game would at least have an option other than gamepad. I know you used to have it as one and there were complications. Yet, if you solve it, I think it will bode well for future sells.

2) Once you are set, you have to tap the drop shot button for the game to read it. Why?

My graphic/environment recommendations:

1) All of the on-court graphics are great, but do you think you are going to up the off-court graphics (crowds, audience seating, etc.). Also, can you have the crowds, umpire, and ball boys look at the tennis ball during play?

You did great with the outside court! Wonderful. It was as if I was playing outside (wind sound was great)!!

Player recommendations:

1) Make two-handers with a two-hander. I play with "Fabrice Santoro," and he looks like he uses a single-hand and then tries to sneak a double-hander on me. If the two-hander grip could be establish way before the opponent hits the ball, that would be great.

Audio recommendations:

1) I think the sneaker sound is a bit overboard for the indoor court.

2) Some mixed audio from the crowds [a little boos (sorrow), sounds of claps [loud, moderate, soft), cheering on, etc.]

Game recommendations:

1) Full ATP/WTA rankings (52-week calendar):

Davis Cup/Fed Cup, summer olympics, charity event (option), all included.

b. Also, if you don't play the game in a while, the game will detect this. You not signing up in tournaments = a lower ranking for you. The game keeps going with or without you! Haha.

2) 1-4 human players option within a career (with single and doubles support)

a. Watch your friends and family go up and down the rankings with or without you.

b. Doubles within a single career mode should be fun with a family relative or friend.

3) Simulated option: Rain-delay

a. Also, wind is a very important factor for outdoor tennis. So, I think this would be good to add.

b. Indoor courts should have humidity. This will test the players with lack of stamina!!

c. I think the sun is important for outdoor courts (stamina and unsighted on serves).

4) Simulated option: Challenge system (linesmen/women have their own percentage to correctly call the ball; the umpire being able to do so the most)!!

5) Online support (LAN option as well)

a. Play doubles with anyone across the world! Your team mate can be from China, but you located in United States!!

6) Court variation.

I know you are going to add more courts, but I hope you allow them to play differently. I think you will. This can also be a simulated option that can be turned on or off.

7) Statistics:

You have the in-game stats already. That is nice, but do you think you can have some pop-ups during the match (for example, 15 winners and 0 unforced, break point conversion, fastest serve in the match, etc.).

Also, I think it would be nice to see the seed and rank of the players next to the name grid.

Note: Simulated options can be turned off in the game or there can be two types of careers (simulated and arcade).

What do you think Full Ace guru?

[kschoice]

Okay Kschoice. You are ready?

I must say that overall, I liked my experience with the demo!!

I am very, very, very glad you did !

1) Get the keyboard back as . . . note this . . . AN OPTION. From my experience, I know a lot of players of tennis game would at least have an option other than gamepad. I know you used to have it as one and there were complications. Yet, if you solve it, I think it will bode well for future sells.

Keyboard is there. You have to configure it in the settings menu. Also if you don't have a pad connected when you first launch the game keyboard is chosen automatically.

2) Once you are set, you have to tap the drop shot button for the game to read it. Why?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about.

1) All of the on-court graphics are great, but do you think you are going to up the off-court graphics (crowds, audience seating, etc.). Also, can you have the crowds, umpire, and ball boys look at the tennis ball during play?

Maybe some day, but to be honest, that is not very high on my list of priorities.

You did great with the outside court! Wonderful. It was as if I was playing outside (wind sound was great)!!

1) Make two-handers with a two-hander. I play with "Fabrice Santoro," and he looks like he uses a single-hand and then tries to sneak a double-hander on me. If the two-hander grip could be establish way before the opponent hits the ball, that would be great.

I agree with that. We have overlooked the two-handed forehand at first. I will try to have that fixed. It's not too bad as of now because it's only about one player who is on the verge of retiring anyway (it didn't come to my mind when I chose to put him inside the demo that it would show that defect), but we have to fix that before we put the ladies in.

Audio recommendations:

1) I think the sneaker sound is a bit overboard for the indoor court.

2) Some mixed audio from the crowds [a little boos (sorrow), sounds of claps [loud, moderate, soft), cheering on, etc.]

Definitely something to think about.

Game recommendations:

About everything you talked about are things I mean to put inside the game. Game only includes grand slam events for now, with a database of over 200 players and with the editor, you may create as many as you want.
Courts already have different bounce properties as of now. I also mean to have in-game replays, to allow the player to save a point in order to watch it again later / trade it / whatever (most spectacular point of the month contest on ITST, anyone ?).

Those are a lot of things to do (and there are even others I have in mind), and you have to bear with me as I am the only coder on that project now and I only have two hands and one brain

I hope the game will find its audience so that it will give us time to put all I thought about inside, and maybe bring another coder on the project.

What do you think Full Ace guru?

I must say again that I am very glad you appreciated the experience. All the features you've been asking for makes me think you want more Full Ace now and I'm glad we've really brought you in on this project.

[ANILTJE]

I am not sure if I understood you well. But in my opinion safe shots shouldn't go in too easy unless the are just less accurate.

They should like not be as good as a pro player can pull off.
They should land in the court and easier to attack. And when you want to be in control you need to take more risk . And those shots should go out easier.

I like this idea of shrinking the court.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiZhkA7W ... re=channel

That should for me be the safe shots.

[kschoice]

I am not sure if I understood you well. But in my opinion safe shots shouldn't go in too easy unless the are just less accurate.

They should like not be as good as a pro player can pull off.
They should land in the court and easier to attack. And when you want to be in control you need to take more risk . And those shots should go out easier.

I like this idea of shrinking the court.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiZhkA7W ... re=channel

That should for me be the safe shots.

Fuzzyyellowballs videos are spot on as always

Let me explain the way shot aiming is designed in Full Ace. You're aiming for a spot in the opponent court. When you hit, the ball is going to go inside an area that is centered around that spot. This area gets wider as the shot is more difficult, your character has low abilities for this type of shot, and your timing and positioning are off.
If you were to hit shots for a long time in Full Ace tutorial 101, and see the distribution of bounces, it would look like this : http://codelab.fr/up/random-normal-0-100.png. Those are easy shots, where you are positioned well, so they tend to go where you aim ; most of the time they're just a little off, sometimes more.

So, based on that, I think this model fits the "shrinking the court" concept. It's pretty much up to you, as the player, to shrink the court in your mind according to the shot you're trying to make and the risk you're willing to take.

I made it this way because that's how I feel about hitting a ball in real life. I know that when I'm well positioned on a slow ball, I can hit hard and be pretty sure that my ball will bounce in a few square-feet zone.

When the opponent made a great shot, and I'm barely able to touch it, I know that if I want to keep some chance that the ball bounces in, I have to aim pretty much for the center of the court, and hit a safe shot. If I decide to go for a winner then, I must assume the great risk of hitting it wide. It still may succeed sometimes, but more often than not, it's gonna go out, or maybe go in but completely off target, and probably offer the opponent an easy finish.

[djarvik]

I think you got it a bit wrong.

Safe shots are "safe" because of the skill of the player, only. Nothing else. Because of countless hours practicing the timing of the shot.

Right now, even if I hit the button while the ball is way in front of me, the player will preform a "safe" shot for me, and it will go in. This is called: taking control from me, its called "safe" shot not in terms of tennis, but in your own head, because it "should" be safe. But the fact is, I timed it bad and it should go out. Period.

If you play tennis in real life (like I do) you simply cannot deny that timing is the most important thing and has a much greater affect on the outcome of the shot then anything else, even foot work. A player with bad footwork but good timing still can be relatively successful, but no matter how good is your foot work, if you are hitting the ball at the wrong time, like a feet in front of of you or behind.... you will miss.

Right now, all the safe shots go in....even if timed badly. You really have to hit it 2 feet in-front to miss it, that is NOT true to life tennis.

Another thing is hitting down the line is way too easy. Redirecting a ball should be one of the toughest things to do in tennis.

I see that you very stubborn which is really good when developing anything. You have your mind set on most of the mechanics of the game....I am not sure we can change your mind.....but we trying.

[kschoice]

I think you got it a bit wrong.

Safe shots are "safe" because of the skill of the player, only. Nothing else. Because of countless hours practicing the timing of the shot.

Right now, even if I hit the button while the ball is way in front of me, the player will preform a "safe" shot for me, and it will go in. This is called: taking control from me, its called "safe" shot not in terms of tennis, but in your own head, because it "should" be safe. But the fact is, I timed it bad and it should go out. Period.

I think we disagree on this. As I said above, Full Ace takes in account the abilities of the character you're impersonating. My opinion is that there is no point in a tennis game to make it so you can miss a shot by 1 or 2 meters when I, in real life, as the very low league player I am, would be able to keep it inside a 20 cm square, most of the time.

A safe shot is just what it is, a safe shot. Most of the time it won't harm your opponent in any way, and if you aim for the lines with it, and/or your positioning and timing are bad, and/or your opponent's ball is hard to deal with, it will still regularly go out.

If you play tennis in real life (like I do) you simply cannot deny that timing is the most important thing and has a much greater affect on the outcome of the shot then anything else, even foot work. A player with bad footwork but good timing still can be relatively successful, but no matter how good is your foot work, if you are hitting the ball at the wrong time, like a feet in front of of you or behind.... you will miss.

Right now, all the safe shots go in....even if timed badly. You really have to hit it 2 feet in-front to miss it, that is NOT true to life tennis.

As I think I already stated many times, I do play in real life (I am 31 and have been playing for half my life now, almost as long as I've been programming computers ). More than that, I think the fact that I actually chose to work on a tennis game as an independent developer speaks a lot on the fact that I'm pretty much a tennis freak . I absolutely love tennis.
Timing is certainly as important as you describe when you're really off, but I think real life players very soon get the proper timing frame, and from then errors resulting from that won't be that big. Positioning, on the other hand, has a major impact on any player, whatever his level of play. I seldom hear tennis observers telling a pro player missed a shot because he hit the ball too early or too late, but very often because his positioning was poor. Same goes for tennis instructors I've been with, they always emphasize on our positioning and I didn't recall any time they actually made us work specifically on shot timing.

Another thing is hitting down the line is way too easy. Redirecting a ball should be one of the toughest things to do in tennis.

I admit I didn't take that specific fact in account yet.

I see that you very stubborn which is really good when developing anything. You have your mind set on most of the mechanics of the game....I am not sure we can change your mind.....but we trying.

As I said, you can understand why I may be stubborn. At least, I'm dedicated to try and argue about my choices with you guys. But I still have to get back to work too